Live 11 TV / Film scoring?

[buckman]

This maybe asked a few times, but with Ableton live 11 imminent are there any new features for better film or tv scoring?
Like nudge items to frames? Frame clock / timeline?

Are others here using Live 10 or 11 for TV Film or Commercials scoring?Any tips as Ableton is so flexible with audio that I’d love to use it instead of exporting to something else?

I tried it a while back and believe the only way (back then) was to scrub the items though the timeline with no grid and just guess?
As there’s no time code on the display clock? 

Apologies if I am wrong, or if there are now better ways to do this?

[buckman]

BUMP anyone?

Are there any free M4L Max devices that would help with Frames/TV sync scoring as add ons?

[[jur]]

Nothing new in this area.
We still need to workaround for frame-based editing: for e.g 25 fps you need to set your tempo to 187.5 bpm and the grid to 1/32
There's a few M4L devices that give you a floating window with frame-based timings.
I'm using Live for sound and music to picture since L8 I think (time flies!), you need to accept some limitations, but when you're comfortable with your tool you can pretty much make it do everything you need... and Live's flexibility also makes some things much easier. Sure it's not optimized to do these things but it perfectly work

[buckman]

Nothing new in this area.
We still need to workaround for frame-based editing: for e.g 25 fps you need to set your tempo to 187.5 bpm and the grid to 1/32
There's a few M4L devices that give you a floating window with frame-based timings.
I'm using Live for sound and music to picture since L8 I think (time flies!), you need to accept some limitations, but when you're comfortable with your tool you can pretty much make it do everything you need... and Live's flexibility also makes some things much easier. Sure it's not optimized to do these things but it perfectly work

This is interesting and thank you for your reply!

What sort of things have you done only in Live for picture/TV/Film? and i guess once you slide things around without a grid (for example) its pretty easy to line things up?

I have seen some tutorial videos on warping the video/audio track and making this the 'leader' track and placing warp markers at certain points?
I am not sure if this leaves the audio/video in tact? as we dont want to touch that, but makes it easier to sync to cretain hitpoints?
(I haven't tried it as yet)

[Da hand]

Like [Jur] wrote, if you accept that Live will not simply have a feature for everything for film, but is flexible enough to let you get things done, then it makes it much easier to get past that initial mind-set "barrier".

I would not touch the video ever. That is your master and you don't want to mess with it. So I would advise no Warp on the video. Also you want the video to be independent of the music tempo, this way you can play around with the tempo of the music without affecting the tempo of the video - or vice versa - especially useful as new edits of the film come in - and they always do, even if the picture is said to be "locked", lol.

Btw, the top of the arrangement always counts measures, but the bottom offers to count seconds and frames for you.

Either way, to mark your hit points is very easy. When you click on the arrangement timeline, the video preview window shows you where you are exactly in the video. If you zoom in enough on the arrangement timeline and click around you will see the video move between frames and not move if you are still in the same frame. Very quickly by clicking around you can see where a frame starts and ends. Simply place a marker (locator) at the start of the frame and now you have your hit point.

Like this, it only takes a few minutes to mark all the hit points in your film / video and you can see them clearly via the locators as you zoom out. Things snap to locators, so that makes things easy to. You can rename the locators to the names of your hit points. You can start play from the locator, make time edits, select your final render start and end precisely, etc.. as you can see, locators are your friends


As for things I have done in Live for picture:

Music, sound design, ADR, mixing to picture - from tv commercials to films in regular stereo, 5.1, and full dome 8.1 to 25.1. Projects presented on cable tv, movieola, movie theaters, domes and planetariums around the world.

In this demo reel all is composed, synced and mixed to picture in Live. The video part is edited in video software. It's a bit old, but all my new film projects are not out yet

https://vimeo.com/195926119

[apalomba]

I am very interested in this as well. I have done few film score projects in Logic pro, but every time I do I end up missing Live and the power it gives me. I would love to start coming up with a list of things that would be the beginnings of a film score workflow. The awesome part about live is that you can create what ever tool you need.

I am very excited about some of the new features in Live 11. Scene follow rules could go a long way in making interactive film scores where you can try new ideas and versions of the score. It would be nice to have a M4L device that would import a spreadsheet cue list as markers. Then use scenes to break up the cue any way you want.

Looking forward to experimenting with this!

[gtripi]

I've been using Live for film and tv scoring for several years now. I usually go back and forth between Live, Logic, and DP... depending on the needs of the project. As far as I can tell, there's nothing new in Live 11 that is film scoring specific. I've been asking for a way to keep the video window open, when Live is not the front-most program, for years. Still hasn't been added. Also been asking for timecode stamping on audio and bounces.

You should aways leave the video and it's audio alone. It's fairly easy to trim the video track to find your start point. If you're writing a piece that needs to hit a bunch of cuts or moments, you either need to insert meter changes, or just compose straight through and ignore meter (or use a program better suited to this).

One specific strength that Live has, which I've used many times for scoring, is the ability to retune audio in very small increments. As long as Warp is turned off, this is a great tool for lengthening or shortening entire cues at the mix (or stem) level. Sort of like adjusting the tempo, but it has a different sound and effect.

If you're curious to hear some projects that were done entirely in Live (including surround mixing), check out The Knick on HBO, The Wilds on Amazon, or the film Drive. Live definitely isn't going to be the best DAW for scoring, but it's certainly the best creative environment for non-orchestral scores.

[buckman]

Thanks @gtripi,

I looked these up and see they are all composed by Cliff Martinez.

Are you saying that he uses Ableton Live exclusively for scoring to picture?

One specific strength that Live has, which I've used many times for scoring, is the ability to retune audio in very small increments. As long as Warp is turned off, this is a great tool for lengthening or shortening entire cues at the mix (or stem) level. Sort of like adjusting the tempo, but it has a different sound and effect.

So with warp off you mean that you just tune and pitch up or down the audio to fit a scene or hitpoint rather like an sampler does with pitching up/down audio so it gets faster or slower?

[gtripi]

Yeah, they are Cliff's project. I've produced several of these scores with him, and Live is always the go to DAW. It's definitely the best means of exchanging sessions and working quickly. We've always managed to work around the scoring limitations of Live, but could certainly make some suggestions for improving it. You're correct about the sampler analogy for pitching audio.

Greg

[buckman]

Yeah, they are Cliff's project. I've produced several of these scores with him, and Live is always the go to DAW. It's definitely the best means of exchanging sessions and working quickly. We've always managed to work around the scoring limitations of Live, but could certainly make some suggestions for improving it. You're correct about the sampler analogy for pitching audio.

Greg

Wow this is brilliant, Greg... also good that you use Live for Film and TV with Cliff. It certainly is the most creative for sure.
But what about hitpoints etc, do you just turn the grid off, and slide things around until they fit?

[gtripi]

Hit points... well, my personal style is to try to avoid hitting things, unless it makes sense. I usually work in dramatic genres, where hitting cuts or anything "important" might be too on-the-nose. If you do need to hit something, meter changes, or a well planned tempo map is a better option. I can see how doing animation might be more demanding in terms of how to sync to the action/hits with Live. I'd reach for another DAW in that situation.

[buckman]

Hit points... well, my personal style is to try to avoid hitting things, unless it makes sense. I usually work in dramatic genres, where hitting cuts or anything "important" might be too on-the-nose. If you do need to hit something, meter changes, or a well planned tempo map is a better option. I can see how doing animation might be more demanding in terms of how to sync to the action/hits with Live. I'd reach for another DAW in that situation.

Yes i thought this maybe the answer, but I was just wondering how it would stack up in Commercials that need to hit points in a short time
I'm sure its just a case of sliding things around on the timeline with no grid, as you can't nudge by frames, i believe?

[mähdresch]

Nothing new in this area.
We still need to workaround for frame-based editing: for e.g 25 fps you need to set your tempo to 187.5 bpm and the grid to 1/32
There's a few M4L devices that give you a floating window with frame-based timings.
I'm using Live for sound and music to picture since L8 I think (time flies!), you need to accept some limitations, but when you're comfortable with your tool you can pretty much make it do everything you need... and Live's flexibility also makes some things much easier. Sure it's not optimized to do these things but it perfectly work

What is the equation behind the 187,5 bpm and 1/32 grid? Does it also work with other frame rates?

[[jur]]

Nothing new in this area.
We still need to workaround for frame-based editing: for e.g 25 fps you need to set your tempo to 187.5 bpm and the grid to 1/32
There's a few M4L devices that give you a floating window with frame-based timings.
I'm using Live for sound and music to picture since L8 I think (time flies!), you need to accept some limitations, but when you're comfortable with your tool you can pretty much make it do everything you need... and Live's flexibility also makes some things much easier. Sure it's not optimized to do these things but it perfectly work

What is the equation behind the 187,5 bpm and 1/32 grid? Does it also work with other frame rates?

No it won't, as you can imagine. You'll need to tweak the numbers.

[diegux]

I also do professional work here in Argentina.
Live is the best tool for me, the one that makes me more creative.

Biggest problem for me is not being able to change the project tempo without loosing all the syncs in the middle of a job. There has to be a way to lock the clips to absolute SMPTE time. That is not negotiable.

Latency compensation is the other big one. Put an Ozone or whatever you use on the master track and all your sync is messed up big time. Also not negotiable.

Opening AAF of OMF (either should be fine) is really bread and butter for a DAW in 2023. Also not negotiable.

I hope they address all this soon, such a great tool deserves it