Recording Automation in Arrangement from Session Clips [Live 11]

[Audiophillic]

Hi,

I am quite amazed that Live (11) does not do this properly - apparently.

My workflow: I have a bunch of midi clips in session view ready for launching to control external synths. These session clips have no automation recorded.

Then I want to capture my song in the arrangment view, launching session clips along the way. As my song progresses, I want to add automation to the arrangement tracks, played live as I go (I like to make a song by playing/improvising live, like Techno/dub). The problem is that arrangement clips are made out of session clips and, although it does record every automation move I make in the longer arrangement tracks, it always resets, at the start of the session clip, to the first recorded automation in the session clips.

I include too screenshots, the first of the session view automation, and the second of the arrangement longer clip - as you can see, the arrangemnt automation always resets at the start of each cycle of the start of the session clip being played (peaks in the graph).





Can't this be done some other way? Would I have to go in after the fact and correct every peak at the start of the clip in the arrangement? Can't we record automation anew in the arrangemnt view, while not recording in the session clip at the same time, even while the session clip is playing its midi and recording into the arrangment?

Thanks for your help/insights!

[[jur]]

I think that's because you're using modulations rather than automations, which probably makes sense since your using midi CC rather than a "Control Surface" ("blue hand").
I haven't use anything else than Push for years so I need to check this, but this doesn't look like it's working the way we'd expect it to.

[Audiophillic]

Thank you very much for chiming in.
I think these are automations, not modulations. They are definitely within the automations tab in the midi clip.
Yes, I am sending CC meassages via a midi controller.
What doe swork, creating a smooth automation envelope without the resetting at the start of each session clip in the arrangement, is to first record only the midi notes - i.e. record the session clips into the arrangement without adding any automation - and then make another pass through the arrangment recording and record automation only onto the arrangement midi clips that were recorded. Thne, the automation data is smooth, because it is recording directly into the midi clips already present in the arrangment view.
This is not ideal, but a workaround, in case someone is interested.

[[jur]]

They're modulations, at least that's the blue color + filled blue area means.
CC are modulations anyway (I mean the ones not midi mapped with Live's midi map system, but rather internally to e.g Kontakt, which seems to be your case here), they appear as "Midi Ctrl" in the deati clip view envelope tab, and you can see that there's no Automation/Modulation option in this case.
I tried here but couldn't reproduce. It seems that the Session clip modulations are recorded to Arrangement, which ignores my CC overdubs while doing the first recording. If I then overdub in Arrangement, then my new CC tweaks do overridde the Session's ones.

Did you try setting midi takeover (in the Midi preferences tab)mode to something else?

[Audiophillic]

Well, it seems to be working now for some reason! I did change the Takeover mode to other than None (as it was) and it is working, but the strange thing is that I went back to None and it works still...go figure! Well, for now it is working (recording smooth automation anew in arrangment view while recording session view mid clips at the same time into the arrangement), so I am happy.

What I am doing is using the knobs in the synth itself (Toraiz AS-1) as midi controllers, so they send the tweaked parameters (NRPN) info to the Daw to be recorded, where it records as automation. Good for live jamming and capturing and reproducing your performance.

Thank you for engaging in the conversation and helping out.

[Audiophillic]

Well, it seems I spoke too soon. I tried with another track and synth (Prophet Rev2) and get the same as before: no automation/modulation is recorded into the arrangement as I play midi clips from the session, only if session record button is engaged at the same time, and the same problem of resetting of the clip envelopes at the start of each session clips happens again. Meanwhile, the Toraiz track is still working ok. Don't know what I did there to make it work...

I don't know what is happening but will try to find out and post here for future reference. I must have done something in the first track that "turned on" automation recording on that track, but I don't know what it was...I already tried changing the Takeover mode but it makes no difference, still no record of parameters inot the arrangment tracks...

[[jur]]

Might be a good move to report this to support@ableton.com

[Audiophillic]

Might be a good move to report this to support@ableton.com

Thanks- but do you think this is a bug? Often they say (technical support) that this is a matter of learning Live, not a technical issue, that is why I am trying. But will do if I don’t get to understanding it. Thanks.

[[jur]]

Often they say (technical support) that this is a matter of learning Live, not a technical issue, that is why I am trying. But will do if I don’t get to understanding it. Thanks.

If Support answers you this, then it is because it's not a bug and you were not aware of how a feature works.

In this case here, unless I misunderstood something it seems like you're experiencing an unexpected behaviour, so it's worth reporting yes.

[Audiophillic]

Ok, I think I figured it out Here it is for future reference.

It seems that Live (11) can't record new automation in the arrangemnt when recording clips from the session view - it simply transfers the automation already in the clip.

The only two ways, I found, to add new automation to the arrangement while recording session clips at the same time into the arrangement are these:

1. add a midi device in the track you are recording mapped to the midi CCs (or NRPNs) you want to automate. You can map midi controllers (in my case the same synth) to that device. Then, as you record the session clips, turn the knobs in the device or midi controller and it gets recorded into the automation lane of that track. This happens because there is a device within the track (with the midi CCs or NRPNs) that is automated. If there is no device there, midi parameters are not automated in the arrangement (they can be afterwards, on another pass, only in the arrangement, on top of the existing clips in the arrangement).

2. Create a new track and record the automation into that new track in the arrangement. So, when you are recording your session clips (midi notes without automation), they go into one track, and the other, new, track records a new clip in the arrangement only, with the automation recorded. Here it records external midi CCs or NRPNs, without the need for a device to be included in the track, because it is recording anew in the arrangement lane, not the session clips.

I hope this helps. This is particularly useful for people sequencing external synths, like me, but I think in general the same rules apply for any clips (i.e. you can't record new automation into the arrangment on the same tracks you are recording session clips into). Personally I prefer method 1, because it does not create new tracks, and the automation is visible in the arrangement track lane itslef (in option 2 you have to look into the automation midi clip to see the automated parameters).

If, for some reason I am mistaken and it is possible, on your side, to record new automation into arrangement tracks that record session clips at the same time do let me know!

Regards.