Bitwig 4.0 announced

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
pottering
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by pottering » Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:14 pm

Ableton won't copy Bitwig, if that's the premise of this thread, then this thread is pointless.

Not only Ableton, the vast majority of audio devs don't copy other audio devs.

That can be seen across the industry, vast majority of plugin and DAW devs CLEARLY make a big effort to make their products distinct.

There is a huge amount of mutual respect and professional courtesy across the industry, you can see in the products themselves, in the interviews with key figures where they will mention positively key figures from competing companies, in the presentations in events like Loop and ADC, where the tech people will clearly trace the history and inspirations of their tech.

That holds true from the "evil corporations" like Avid, Apple, Yamaha, to mid-sized companies like Ableton, to single-person companies like many plugin devs.

The only big exceptions are Bitwig and Behringer.

BTW, Apple paid and licensed the mouse tech (whose patent ran our in 1987, after that the mouse became common elsewhere), Xerox actually sued Apple and MS for elements in their OSes, MS actually paid and licensed tech from Apple for Windows 1.0, Apple felt MS used stuff that was not included in the license and actually sued MS for Windows later, ETC.

So the "copying was always OK in software" scenario described in a previous post here is COMPLETY FALSE.

[EDIT] Also, seems obvious to me that if Ableton really started copying the few features in Bitwig that make it different right now, that would be a death sentence to Bitwig as a independent company.

The software would survive (especially on Windows/Linux), like Energy XT or other obscure DAWs with a loyal following, but it would kill any growth to their sales.

So again, IMO Ableton won't copy Bitwig.
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[jur]
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by [jur] » Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:32 pm

tomasmark79 wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:21 pm
You're still trying to make bitwig visible in Ableton forums, why? Get users real by using DAW.
We're just discussing...
Ableton Forum Moderator

Machinesworking
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:02 pm

Angstrom wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:19 pm
Machinesworking wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:46 am

The biggest problem with it is that people think it's a subscription, and that it's not as strict about 365 days worth of updates as you might think, but describing how it works is hard, ...
I was on board with that understanding and was poised to buy a license, but then their FUBAR happened and revealed the truth behind the fiction.

HOUSE PURCHASE ANALOGY
Lets say you buy a house on the following terms: A large flat payment of the entire price gives ownership and ensures maintenance cover for one year. When the 12 month period is up you own the house. If you wanted to re-enter the maintenance contract then a fee must be paid - but you can decline. You own the house. It is not a lease, it is a purchase.

One day, many months after purchase, your can't open your front door. Why? Because the property agents have locked you out . They decided (in error) that you don't have rights to occupy the house.

Now naturally this is a mistake by the property agent, and they apologise and after 48 hours they unlock your front door - BUT ... we learned something.

YOU DON'T OWN YOUR HOUSE IF YOU CAN BE LOCKED OUT BY THE PEOPLE WHO SOLD IT TO YOU

This whole time you thought you owned the house it seems that every day the Property Agents were checking your rights. Every open of the door was actually authenticated by the Property Agent. One time the agent made a mistake and you lost access. So what we learned is we do not own the freehold on this property - what we own is a license which is authenticated on each entry - and that is conditional on factors outside our control.

If the property agent makes another mistake then we must plead our case to get access, if the agent decides to sell their business, or close it down - we will not be able to open our front door. We learn that several homeowners have had this exact issue, and the property agent dismissed their claims.

THE PROPERTY AGENTS ARE NOT BEING HONEST

The Property Agents prior claims that the license was an outright purchase with 12 month maintenance contract was in fact a lie. The truth is : you bought a long term license to use, with constant access rights mediated by the agent. This access license will be mediated forever.
Go and post your house keys to the agent who sold you your house two years ago. Now stand outside your locked house and say "this is normal"

THE AUTHENTICATION IS LIKE A LEASE
Most purchase authentications happen at point of sale ("install"). This agent is different, they are authenticating on entry, continuously long after sale. Every day, every time you open your door. 2 years, 5 years down the line, the agent who made the error, and stumbled to correct it - and might do so again says "this is normal".

They are authenticating like a lease.

It implies an as-yet unrevealed business strategy, a lack of transparency if not dishonesty, a lack of accountability, and a risk to consumers.
Again, it was a software bug that crashed your license when it checked for updates along with server issues. I see no reason to suspect they're lying about it, I've experienced crashes in other software over the years that hosed a license making me authorize the software again. It's a rare problem, but it's not so rare I have to suspect a company is lying about it. I have one piece of software that authorizes via iLock Cloud, which is literally what you're accusing Bitwig of doing. If that's how it operated there would be no reason to lie about it.

Machinesworking
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:12 pm

pottering wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:14 pm
Ableton won't copy Bitwig, if that's the premise of this thread, then this thread is pointless.

Not only Ableton, the vast majority of audio devs don't copy other audio devs.

That can be seen across the industry, vast majority of plugin and DAW devs CLEARLY make a big effort to make their products distinct.
Ableton implemented capture recording, a direct lift from Logic, at least that's the DAW I know that had it ten plus years before Ableton did. Your point is just flat wrong on every level. Piano Roll style MIDI editing had an origin, and every developer has lifted it for their own DAW, this list is endless. A good idea is copied is lifted and used in every DAW. Even Clips in Ableton has origins in Max. Nothing is completely developed in a vacuum.

Machinesworking
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:46 pm

Oh, and the way software patents work is pretty clear, you can develop the same end products, but you can't use the same code to do it. You don't get to patent using a mouse to paint colors in a paint program, but if someone uses the same code to do the same job you can sue them. This was the story behind MS and Apple in regards to Windows and lines of code that were lifted from the Macintosh. It's not widely known but that's exactly why Gates "invested" 100 million in Apple stock in 98, in lieu of lawsuits Apple had against MS.

Sean_Clarke
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Sean_Clarke » Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:39 pm

A bunch of guys left Steinberg to make Studio On which is similar to Cubase...
A bunch of guys left Ableton to make Bitwig which is similar to Live...
Happens all of the time, take the basic idea/structure and try and improve on it.

It isn't necessarily a zero sum game, sometimes both products diversify and do well...I don't think Bitwig has made much impact on Live's market, Logic adding 'clips' probably did more damage as a few users will just use Logic now rather than both.

If you were so fed up with Live you would consider switching to Bitwig, your probably would have switched to something else if it wasn't there anyway...
DAWS: Live 11 Suite + PUSH2, Studio One, Bitwig and Reason all via an X32 desk: Instruments: modular and analogue stuff, guitars, basses and drums.

jlgrimes
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by jlgrimes » Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:34 am

pottering wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:14 pm
Ableton won't copy Bitwig, if that's the premise of this thread, then this thread is pointless.

Not only Ableton, the vast majority of audio devs don't copy other audio devs.

That can be seen across the industry, vast majority of plugin and DAW devs CLEARLY make a big effort to make their products distinct.

There is a huge amount of mutual respect and professional courtesy across the industry, you can see in the products themselves, in the interviews with key figures where they will mention positively key figures from competing companies, in the presentations in events like Loop and ADC, where the tech people will clearly trace the history and inspirations of their tech.

That holds true from the "evil corporations" like Avid, Apple, Yamaha, to mid-sized companies like Ableton, to single-person companies like many plugin devs.

The only big exceptions are Bitwig and Behringer.

BTW, Apple paid and licensed the mouse tech (whose patent ran our in 1987, after that the mouse became common elsewhere), Xerox actually sued Apple and MS for elements in their OSes, MS actually paid and licensed tech from Apple for Windows 1.0, Apple felt MS used stuff that was not included in the license and actually sued MS for Windows later, ETC.

So the "copying was always OK in software" scenario described in a previous post here is COMPLETY FALSE.

[EDIT] Also, seems obvious to me that if Ableton really started copying the few features in Bitwig that make it different right now, that would be a death sentence to Bitwig as a independent company.

The software would survive (especially on Windows/Linux), like Energy XT or other obscure DAWs with a loyal following, but it would kill any growth to their sales.

So again, IMO Ableton won't copy Bitwig.

All DAWS copy from one another to some level.

Clips come from Cubase. Something every DAW use now. VSTs does as well, as well as ASIO.

If every DAW maker tried to reinvent the wheel Everytime, things would probably be worse and pointless.


Ableton Racks where clearly inspired by Reason Combinator.

Many of Ableton's new features are catch-up features that come from other DAWS. Same with Reason.

Logic's latest release was clearly inspired by Ableton.



Great features eventually makes their way into most DAWS and usually the manufacturer that either refuses or struggles to implement gets singled out.


That said even though everyone copies from each other, every DAW is still unique because everyone has a unique idea of perfect workflow. Any manytimes one manufacturer will be the original innovator, while another sit back and improve the innovation further.


It makes better DAWS overall. That said there will always be some stragglers. (Manufacturers that March to their own drum). Reason kind of fit this description but even in the end, they get ideas from other DAWS as well.

Machinesworking
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:06 pm

Sean_Clarke wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:39 pm
A bunch of guys left Steinberg to make Studio On which is similar to Cubase...
A bunch of guys left Ableton to make Bitwig which is similar to Live...
Happens all of the time, take the basic idea/structure and try and improve on it.

It isn't necessarily a zero sum game, sometimes both products diversify and do well...I don't think Bitwig has made much impact on Live's market, Logic adding 'clips' probably did more damage as a few users will just use Logic now rather than both.

If you were so fed up with Live you would consider switching to Bitwig, your probably would have switched to something else if it wasn't there anyway...
I haven't switched really, I've never had a problem working with more than one DAW. Probably stems from Reason rewired into DP or Logic back in the day being the most efficient way to have a stable system in 2002 or so.

I suspect you're right in some ways though, when you talk to enough Bitwig users it's not people who jumped ship from Ableton, it's people who never liked the UX of Ableton in the first place. Most people like me who owned Live first, still own Live. Why would I want to give up 15 years worth of material because I thought Bitwig looked good? I haven't upgraded to 11 yet, but I will in the winter during one of their sales.

Caveats prevent the "big dinasaur" DAWs from working well with Clips and Session style views:
In Logic it's pretty sweet, the iOS app with clips is cool, but tempo is not determined by Clips so setting up a live performance means that tempo changes have to happen predetermined by the timeline, so a set with different tempo songs loaded into Clips is pointless.

In Digital Performer it's even weirder. Clips don't have stop buttons, so you have to create them to get a previous Clip in a Session slot to stop playing. Plus for some reason they left out a zero launch quantize setting? The same thing as in Logic applies in terms of tempo. You can however get a Set together with DP using it's Chunks feature to load various sequences with different tempos without opening a new project.

Anyway, point being the big DAWs are just adding some of the features of Live or Bitwig, but it's not game changing for Ableton or anything.

chapelier fou
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by chapelier fou » Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:59 am

chapelier fou wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:16 am
Clips one after the others.
In Live you can set up a track as the "input" track, and route it to several armed audio tracks.
Then you can trigger the clip slots recording on the selected scene with a dedicated midi message per armed track, thanks to the "track launch" control (available only in MIDI mapping screen). I don't see any comparable feature in Bitwig. Is there any ?
So I guess it's just not possible (no answer from Bitwig support either).
That makes playing live just not possible for me.
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
MacStudio M1Max 32Go OS 12.3.1

antic604
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by antic604 » Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:01 am

pottering wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:33 pm
But you are not in KVR now, this is Ableton's own forums, people don't have to keep appeasing the completely bullshit notion that 'Bitwig is original" here.
Probably because the details make all the difference?

"Details", like ability to e.g.:
- edit MIDI & audio clips everywhere
- see both clip launcher & arranger on one screen
- easily modulate things, without losing control over their automation
- put the devices in any order you like, without forced MIDI FX -> Instrument -> Audio FX
- create your own instruments & audio FX without actually having to learn "coding" or "scripting"
- bounce small sections of MIDI tracks in - actual - place, without having to freeze & flatten whole long track & using another track

Such small things make a difference, if they happen to be important to your workflow.

And BTW, I don't see you condemning Live for using a linear timeline, faders, arm buttons, etc. that Cubase or Cakewalk "invented" decades before it??

Sean_Clarke
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Sean_Clarke » Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:44 pm

Obviously Bigwig completely ripped off Ableton Live, they were working for Ableton before they left and set up Bitwig...but that was over seven years ago now so its time to move on! Did they do anything illegal- No, people do this all of the time in every industry. Did they change it a bit and improve some aspects- Yes, something's are better and something IMHO are worse.

So, in 2021 Live has many unique features Bitwig doesn't have and Visa versa...I don't think Bitwigs 'existence' has had any impact on Ableton at all.

Bitwig is still small and 'boutique' feeling, very niche in some respects and now selling more on its 'modular' environment than it's session view which barely gets a mention nowadays.

Live is an industry Standard with a large user base, superb learning resources, a massive professionals and user 3rd party library of 'stuff', dedicated hardware (PUSH 2 is arguably the best dedicated hardware controller ever made) and potential to collaborate with far more people.

Pay yer money, make yer choice...but nothing wrong with looking at other DAWS and requesting their features be added to Live if you like it.
DAWS: Live 11 Suite + PUSH2, Studio One, Bitwig and Reason all via an X32 desk: Instruments: modular and analogue stuff, guitars, basses and drums.

Machinesworking
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:07 pm

Sean_Clarke wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:44 pm
Live is an industry Standard with a large user base, superb learning resources, a massive professionals and user 3rd party library of 'stuff', dedicated hardware (PUSH 2 is arguably the best dedicated hardware controller ever made) and potential to collaborate with far more people.
Probably wouldn't have bothered looking at Bitwig if it couldn't use Push 2, but it can and does work quite well with Bitwig. Live has the best control surface support built in, but Moss does great work with any MIDI controller and Bitwig.

.marc.
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by .marc. » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:40 am

sorry for reactivating... BUT: i hate to work with L11 anymore because... i cant... 3 tracks without any special and the cracking sound starts. yep yep: "support". over month i was in contact with them. after reinstall my complete system, use there stresstest and so on. nothing happened anymore. now i'm waiting for 11.1 since month in hope to ger back my old loved live. But nothing happend. on the other hand i wait for the new mac mini with m1 max with 64 GB to (by the way: to get ableton to work again).

but that all in sum: it can not be to invest time and thousands of euro to get a DAW work...

back to topic: how is Bitwig in case of performance? i have the demo but till now cant bring my macbook pro i7, etc. to start a fan.... instead of that: the fans starting at the same time ableton is on my screen.

I hate it so much that i'm at this point now. after years of live, m4l devices, etc.

frustration-level 1000

Bitwig i chosed because of the ableton lookalike and feel

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