Bitwig 4.0 announced

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Machinesworking
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:26 pm

pottering wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:04 pm
[jur] wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:52 am
Where's .als mentionned?


ALS is a gzipped XML file.

In fact, if you want to know how ALS works just read that "dawproject" page and change the words ".dawproject" to ".als" and "zip" to "gzip" (arguably gzip is zip already).

Or just use 7-zip in any Live Set and see how the XML works.

That also provides a REAL-LIFE example of how a XML file like "dawproject" would work with real plugins, real sample files, etc.

People that really want to push that "dawproject" thing gotta admit it is Live where people will find numerous actual examples of how to implement that "dawproject" thing in the real world, since Ableton already did it, years ago, with millions of users not even noticing it is a gzipped XML.

By the way, Live's ADG, ADV and ALC are also gzipped XML. In case Bitwig comes with "dawpreset" and "dawclips" too ("wow such a innovative company").
Yes, because Ableton invented XML.....
Again this is just weird flexing. Personally I would like to see a universal porting format, this isn't directly being done by Bitwig in the first place, and if it is in fact using the same formats at Live then it's going to de facto offer Ableton more compatibility than other DAWs that adopt it with less work.

You're literally complaining that you think Bitwig are adopting Lives project format as a universal format like that's a bad thing? I have 6 DAWs loaded on this computer, I actively use at least three. I see no problem with a universal format, and I really would be surprised if Ableton had any problem with it at all. Plus you're reading a whole hell of a lot into adopting a universal format like XML, but whatever, I forgot that people online treat their preferences for DAWs etc. like europeans fight about football teams. :)

pottering
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by pottering » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:33 pm

Oh please, let's stop this pretense "dawproject" is just one "coincidence" in isolation, when it is actually the last "coincidence" out of hundreds, maybe thousands, since Bitwig was founded in 2009 (12+ years ago, that was before the 1st Launchpad, before M4L).

I mean, it is pretty damn obvious why Bitwig fans always try to steer the discussion towards the small details that look different, instead of the bigger picture that looks identical.

But you are not in KVR now, this is Ableton's own forums, people don't have to keep appeasing the completely bullshit notion that 'Bitwig is original" here.
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[erm]
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by [erm] » Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:33 pm

Let’s keep it civil please.
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Machinesworking
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:18 pm

pottering wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:33 pm
Oh please, let's stop this pretense "dawproject" is just one "coincidence" in isolation, when it is actually the last "coincidence" out of hundreds, maybe thousands, since Bitwig was founded in 2009 (12+ years ago, that was before the 1st Launchpad, before M4L).
Yeah, I don't care. Sorry if that seems crazy to you, but DAW developers steal from each other all the time, or were you under the impression that Live was the first to implement capture last recording, comping, MPE? etc. etc.
I mean, it is pretty damn obvious why Bitwig fans always try to steer the discussion towards the small details that look different, instead of the bigger picture that looks identical.
Again, don't care, Logic, Cubase and Studio One look identical too, crazy eh?
But you are not in KVR now, this is Ableton's own forums, people don't have to keep appeasing the completely bullshit notion that 'Bitwig is original" here.
Again, does't bother me one bit. The original Emagic team that made Logic came from Steinberg, Studio One as well, the developers were on the Nuendo team. Xils-Labs came from Arturia, Ableton developers started at NI..

Windows looks like Mac OS, and Mac OS was a take off of a Xerox research labs ideas and they weren't the originators of the idea in the first place. There's a 1968 Berkely seminar where a guy lays out the entire modern window and mouse interface. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRYnloq ... D6718B8FD3

People are obessed with things that flatly don't matter to me at all. What I care about is whether I like the workflow in a DAW and I've never really liked sub windows for MIDI and audio editing, Live has you work that way, it doesn't suite me. I like Bitwigs Grid more for making instruments in and it's UX in general, but I like Lives Jitter and movie implementation, Rewire support etc. These to me are reasons to like or dislike the software. Actual real world differences in what you can do with the software.

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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Angstrom » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:08 pm

Well, What a fuckup by the user-hating BitWig.

I just learned that it ...
checks your license against an online verification EVERY time it starts, so if you need to open it at a gig, or in the woods? You will be locked out of Bitwig.

Even worse ... They had a massive licensing fuckup over the last couple of days where their authentication server went down and every single bitwig customer got locked out of their rented software. Some were locked out for two days.

I'd say this is bad for "owned" software but of course their users can only lease it off them for a yearly fee. Pretty terrible on its own but combine that with perpetual online authentication and you have a recipe for disaster. License changes? locked out. API changes? Locked out. It's a complete fuck you by BitWig. Totally prioritising their own interests over paying users.

I think this mentality is absolutely disgusting and I will never support them because of this, and I hope their business fails because of their attitude to paying customers. I'm pretty sure that anyone with a crack is unaffected by this anti-user bullshit. So it ONLY harms and insults their customers, which I will not be one of.

I'd advise everyone to stay away from that company, and any company who operates that way. They deserve to fail painfully.

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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by [jur] » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:33 pm

ang(er)storm :lol:
Angstrom wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:08 pm
Well, What a fuckup by the user-hating BitWig.

I just learned that it ...
checks your license against an online verification EVERY time it starts, so if you need to open it at a gig, or in the woods? You will be locked out of Bitwig.

Even worse ... They had a massive licensing fuckup over the last couple of days where their authentication server went down and every single bitwig customer got locked out of their rented software. Some were locked out for two days.

I'd say this is bad for "owned" software but of course their users can only lease it off them for a yearly fee. Pretty terrible on its own but combine that with perpetual online authentication and you have a recipe for disaster. License changes? locked out. API changes? Locked out. It's a complete fuck you by BitWig. Totally prioritising their own interests over paying users.

I think this mentality is absolutely disgusting and I will never support them because of this, and I hope their business fails because of their attitude to paying customers. I'm pretty sure that anyone with a crack is unaffected by this anti-user bullshit. So it ONLY harms and insults their customers, which I will not be one of.

I'd advise everyone to stay away from that company, and any company who operates that way. They deserve to fail painfully.
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Angstrom
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Angstrom » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:37 am

Bitwig are licensing software out with this purported license: A user buys a version and gets updates for a year, when the update plan expires they can keep what they downloaded. Great, fine, a bit weird, but that's their model. So - we are led to believe it's still a stand-alone app which we own.

Now we find out it's authenticating remotely on every startup. As if it's an interaction with Google Mail, or with Office 365. It's making sure we have rights, using a constant heartbeat of authentication to a remote Auth server through an API.
Now, why would it do that. We "own" this. But the auth model is that of SAAS. Subscription model, software as a service. It's constantly checking on us.

In software everyone wants to turn everything into a subscription. It's great for cashflow predictions, VC exit strategies, and leveraged buyouts, but terrible for every customer.

Allegory Time
My relatives used to sell cars. They still appear to, but they are financial services providers. Cars aren't the business, the business is lending customers enough money to have use of a car for a period of time. Nobody ever owns the car, it's a token in a credit game. The cars don't need to be good, they only need to exist for the period of the lease, then they vanish. They are not the point of the game any more.

SAAS is the work of Satan.

[jur]
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by [jur] » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:55 am

I can't deny that I hate the subscription model thing and don't use any software that works that way.
SAAS and cats are the work of Satan indeed :lol:
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Sean_Clarke
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Sean_Clarke » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:01 am

I started using Bitwig when it hit V2 about 4 years ago and didn't use Live much after that until Live hit V11. I am a big fan of comping and started using Live again...now Bitwig has also added comping (but no midi comping) its a close run thing, but having both is a great option! I really miss the browser and in-clip editing when I am in Live, but there is plenty I miss from Live when I am using Bitwig...you cant have it all unless you have both :D

The only problem with adding comping (in both versions) is that it just makes me miss pitch correction even more...In 2021 I expect to be able to edit audio pitch as easily as I edit midi pitch (Reason does this really well, keep it simple, we don't need full Melodyne...)...the first one to add that will have what I consider to be a complete DAW that could rival more mainstream linear DAWS like Studio One or Logic.

I love Bitwig, but it has its disadvantages - the Grid is simple (and audio only), but it is no MAX and has no 3rd quality party stuff, Live is an ecosystem for both MAX developers, soundpack developers and hardware developers. With Bitwig you are on your own! Bitwig updates have been hit and miss and the annual plan model is unnecessarily complicated, I think its actually distracting them from just taking their time with the base product. The quality of the 'content' with Live 11 suite (packs, instruments, fx) is a different level to Bitwig as well, for me almost enough reason to buy Live! So, if the stuff that comes with the DAW isn't important to you and you want to make your own everything and use scripts for hardware etc, Bitwig may be a good choice

A bit of competition is good, Ableton were almost a cult (in a good way) and had it their own way for a long time...Ableton as a company is 10x bigger than Bitwig, so they are different animals, but they both make really cool stuff and are both I think fundamentally good companies who want to deliver creative tools.
DAWS: Live 11 Suite + PUSH2, Studio One, Bitwig and Reason all via an X32 desk: Instruments: modular and analogue stuff, guitars, basses and drums.

Proxy-M
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Proxy-M » Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:16 pm

Angstrom wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:08 pm
Well, What a fuckup by the user-hating BitWig.
...
They deserve to fail painfully.
I get your frustration, the license lockup they had for a day was bad, although it seemed to be a widespread issue that affected more companies besides Bitwig. I have used Bitwig for many years without any license issue, also with long periods (many months) without internet including the past few months. I only need to login/verify on updates. Also older versions still work. In contrast I’ve had ableton crash and render projects unusable beyond repair multiple times and experienced licensing issues with ableton on updates. I’m not saying bitwig is flawless, I’ve seen other users report license issues so they do occur, but so do they with Ableton. Everyone is entitled to dislike their licensing model - I do - but imo it is not nearly as bad as you put it. Also I think you misinterpreted it because you can use a specific version you purchased for many years. There are currently still v1 users out there, so the lease comparison is not entirely correct and no license or API change will lock you out of your purchased version.
Sean_Clarke wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:01 am
they both make really cool stuff and are both I think fundamentally good companies who want to deliver creative tools.
This ↑

tomasmark79
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by tomasmark79 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:21 pm

You're still trying to make bitwig visible in Ableton forums, why? Get users real by using DAW.
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Machinesworking
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Machinesworking » Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:11 am

Angstrom wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:08 pm
Well, What a fuckup by the user-hating BitWig.

I just learned that it ...
checks your license against an online verification EVERY time it starts, so if you need to open it at a gig, or in the woods? You will be locked out of Bitwig.

Even worse ... They had a massive licensing fuckup over the last couple of days where their authentication server went down and every single bitwig customer got locked out of their rented software. Some were locked out for two days.

I'd say this is bad for "owned" software but of course their users can only lease it off them for a yearly fee. Pretty terrible on its own but combine that with perpetual online authentication and you have a recipe for disaster. License changes? locked out. API changes? Locked out. It's a complete fuck you by BitWig. Totally prioritising their own interests over paying users.

I think this mentality is absolutely disgusting and I will never support them because of this, and I hope their business fails because of their attitude to paying customers. I'm pretty sure that anyone with a crack is unaffected by this anti-user bullshit. So it ONLY harms and insults their customers, which I will not be one of.

I'd advise everyone to stay away from that company, and any company who operates that way. They deserve to fail painfully.
Yeah that's not how it works, it was a software bug that crashed the license when checking for updates. An embarrassing bug, but it's not checking the internet for your license every time you open bitwig.

Machinesworking
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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Machinesworking » Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:46 am

[jur] wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:55 am
I can't deny that I hate the subscription model thing and don't use any software that works that way.
SAAS and cats are the work of Satan indeed :lol:
It's not a subscription model. It's an update model. You own the license, you buy a years worth of updates, Bitwig doesn't stop working when the update runs out. Plus, its only runs out for major .1 versions. My subscription ran out in November of last year and the last version 3.3.10 released about the same time as 4, I qualified for. There were 11 updates past my plan running out for an additional 6 months worth of updates that I qualified for.

The biggest problem with it is that people think it's a subscription, and that it's not as strict about 365 days worth of updates as you might think, but describing how it works is hard, even if in practice it's much better than it looks. So you start at 3.3, it's good until whatever point update you're on when the plan runs out. So it's on 3.3, you get updates until 3.4 or version 4 comes out. In practice I don't think it's that much different than an upgrade, you can opt in and out of getting the Upgrade, or like in my case with Live I'm on 10 until this coming holiday sale, I had a few bugs with tempo sync that I'm betting should be ironed out by then. I don't get to play with v11 in the mean time, but it's no punishment to jump back in.

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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Angstrom » Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:19 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:46 am

The biggest problem with it is that people think it's a subscription, and that it's not as strict about 365 days worth of updates as you might think, but describing how it works is hard, ...
I was on board with that understanding and was poised to buy a license, but then their FUBAR happened and revealed the truth behind the fiction.

HOUSE PURCHASE ANALOGY
Lets say you buy a house on the following terms: A large flat payment of the entire price gives ownership and ensures maintenance cover for one year. When the 12 month period is up you own the house. If you wanted to re-enter the maintenance contract then a fee must be paid - but you can decline. You own the house. It is not a lease, it is a purchase.

One day, many months after purchase, your can't open your front door. Why? Because the property agents have locked you out . They decided (in error) that you don't have rights to occupy the house.

Now naturally this is a mistake by the property agent, and they apologise and after 48 hours they unlock your front door - BUT ... we learned something.

YOU DON'T OWN YOUR HOUSE IF YOU CAN BE LOCKED OUT BY THE PEOPLE WHO SOLD IT TO YOU

This whole time you thought you owned the house it seems that every day the Property Agents were checking your rights. Every open of the door was actually authenticated by the Property Agent. One time the agent made a mistake and you lost access. So what we learned is we do not own the freehold on this property - what we own is a license which is authenticated on each entry - and that is conditional on factors outside our control.

If the property agent makes another mistake then we must plead our case to get access, if the agent decides to sell their business, or close it down - we will not be able to open our front door. We learn that several homeowners have had this exact issue, and the property agent dismissed their claims.

THE PROPERTY AGENTS ARE NOT BEING HONEST

The Property Agents prior claims that the license was an outright purchase with 12 month maintenance contract was in fact a lie. The truth is : you bought a long term license to use, with constant access rights mediated by the agent. This access license will be mediated forever.
Go and post your house keys to the agent who sold you your house two years ago. Now stand outside your locked house and say "this is normal"

THE AUTHENTICATION IS LIKE A LEASE
Most purchase authentications happen at point of sale ("install"). This agent is different, they are authenticating on entry, continuously long after sale. Every day, every time you open your door. 2 years, 5 years down the line, the agent who made the error, and stumbled to correct it - and might do so again says "this is normal".

They are authenticating like a lease.

It implies an as-yet unrevealed business strategy, a lack of transparency if not dishonesty, a lack of accountability, and a risk to consumers.

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Re: Bitwig 4.0 announced

Post by Sean_Clarke » Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:29 pm

I don't think the point of mentioning Bitwig here is to sell it to anyone, merely to see if any of their ideas should be or could be implemented in Live. After all, a lot of the best things about Bitwig was 'copied' from Live (the Bitwig Dev's came from Ableton) so what goes around...

For example, Live introduced velocity and note probability, Bitwig have now 'also' done that (in a different way) but included repeat/ratchet probability which I think is pretty cool and would like to see it in Live.

For what its worth, I would be quite happy for Ableton to copy Reasons pitch correction as well :D
DAWS: Live 11 Suite + PUSH2, Studio One, Bitwig and Reason all via an X32 desk: Instruments: modular and analogue stuff, guitars, basses and drums.

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