Live looping limitatiions in Arrangement view

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Post Reply
Tarantulope
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:15 am

Live looping limitatiions in Arrangement view

Post by Tarantulope » Fri May 28, 2021 7:08 am

I want to create a hands-free live looping arrangement in Live.

Session view is great for flexibility and creativity and blah blah blah, I know that, but I want to sacrifice that flexibility for maximum control over the mix. I want to use automation in arrangement view to create a fully arranged, produced, and mixed track that I can perform live. That's the dream, right? - Performing live on multiple instruments, perfect sound, never looking at a screen or touching a mouse?

I can use the IAC driver on my mac to automate the arm buttons of my track, and I can use automation to control the looper plugin. very nice.

However, since Looper only loops audio, I can't use MIDI loops in arrangment view. All I want to do is to arm my drum rack, record two bars, and then automate the subsequent quantization and looping of those two bars.

I thought, surely there is some plugin, some step sequencer, some M4L plugin that will allow me to automate a simple MIDI loop in arrangement view. Alas, here I am posting a new topic to distract myself from the frustration of being punished by Ableton simply because I want to loop MIDI in the wrong view.

If there is a way to record, quantize, and loop MIDI in arrangement mode such that It can be automated so that I can play it live, will someone please tell me how to do it, or explain why this is impossible?

Calagan
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:44 am

Re: Live looping limitatiions in Arrangement view

Post by Calagan » Sat May 29, 2021 7:19 am

I'm interested too in any reliable and stable device that could make live midi looping - but in session view for me.

I think it's just impossible in arrangement view with the existing Live devices : the arrangement view is dedicated to linear time flow, so looping a midi section inside it seems the opposite of that...

But I think you can get the same level of control you want in the session view.
I'm using the session view for my band on stage, and we have a scene for each song, filled with automations (bass louder on the chorus, changing instrument on the verse, etc. etc.)
Just create a scene for each song, and a track/clip for each instrumental part. Launching the scene is launching all the associated clips. Each clip turn on the desired instruments and/or plays the wanted audio parts.
You can then automate inside these clips exactly like you would do in the arrangement view, so you've got a fade out here, a switch from bass to drums there, etc. etc.. It's just embedded in each clip...
I think it's exactly what you want, but in the session view...

Anyway, if you find any device that works for midi looping on the fly (live), just let me know.
For many reasons, using the Live looper on stage with my config is a pain in the ass... I need midi looping and a device I can control without traditionnal mapping (with simple CC messages).

Tarantulope
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:15 am

Re: Live looping limitatiions in Arrangement view

Post by Tarantulope » Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:55 am

Yes, thanks for the advice Calagan

Playing around in session view, the record quantization in session view definitely gives me the effect I'm looking for. Though I don't use a push, I can pre-determine the exact length of my clips, and I can loop quantized MIDI. So even though Ableton is telling me how to live my life, I guess it gives me what I want so I can't complain.

My question to you is, are all of your clips the length of the entire track, or do you utilize the IAC driver or other MIDI control? because It seems like I can have a one dummy clip on my IAC track the entire length of my song that arms the tracks and triggers the session record button to my predetermined loops at the appropriate times. This would be exactly what I want, because I could loop at a specific time without looking at or touching the laptop. I might still be limited in terms of what I can do with automation, but could probably at least turn plugins off and on. curious about what your process is as I continue to experiment

schlam
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:51 am

Re: Live looping limitatiions in Arrangement view

Post by schlam » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:00 am

Hello.
I am exactly in these same questions and needs.

It's possible with ClyphX (unhappily not available yet for Live11...soon..) to loop parts of the arrangement view and trigger their laughing quantized(or not). I didn't really try this functionality but it seems really possible. Surely possible too with max fo live..And as you may think, it's easier to have a better view of a precise arrangement in ..
...the arrangement view..

To record a predefined numbers of bars in session view there is a lot of performant free devices for that on maxforlive.com, no need to have a push.

And for a live midi looping device there were a really cool free device called Midi clip looping v0.1 (or Libreloop or Loopo..) which is a bit obsolete but works quite good. I will release soon another device we could help for that. I will post it here in few days/week..Maybe it will help..

Personnaly, what is bother me the most is when you record midi clips you have to have a predefined tempo. When I am improvising I don't know how many bars my loop will be neither its tempo. This device will may to correct that..

Anyway If you prefer to use the arrangement view for midi looping I really think it's possible !

Cheers

Tarantulope
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:15 am

Re: Live looping limitatiions in Arrangement view

Post by Tarantulope » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:03 am

schlam wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:00 am
And as you may think, it's easier to have a better view of a precise arrangement in ..
...the arrangement view..
haha for sure schlam

Sounds like I'd be interested in the device you're making.

a bit of an update, In session view, I can use the Mac's IAC driver to essentially accomplish MIDI looping to a predetermined arrangement.

I have my instrument tracks prepared: drums, bass, synth etc. on separate tracks, with an empty MIDI clip on each track set to a desired loop length (2 bars, 4 bars, etc.) then I make sure that loop is turned on for each clip.

I put a long clip on a MIDI track - the complete length of my song - and then set the output of that MIDI track to the IAC, on a different MIDI channel (channel 3). Then, I went about MIDI mapping my parameters. The easiest way I found is to temporarily change the midi output on my controller (in my case the Launchkey 61) to match the output of my IAC driver (channel 3). Then once in MIDI mapping mode, I can just click the parameter and assign which note will trigger it. for each of my tracks, I mapped 'select track' and 'arm.' I then also mapped one note to 'session record.'

The most complicated part is placing the notes in my long MIDI clip on the IAC track. Because there's no way to put markers or labels or flags of any kind inside the MIDI clip, it's a bit painstaking counting the measures and making sure the timings are right for the whole arrangement. Maybe creating this clip in arrangement view first is the best workaround for this. But it's just a matter of placing the notes in the right spots to trigger the recording of the preset loops at the right times. I have to make sure that I use the correct sequence of triggers; I make sure that the track is selected, then armed, then session record is triggered, and all of this in the measure before the first downbeat of when I want my loop to start.

Lastly, I make sure record quantization is enabled so my Loops sound better then when I played them.

This is the basis of the method so far. Not counting the Mac's IAC driver, this method doesn't require any third-party plugins and doesn't rely on M4L devices. And once I trigger that long MIDI clip on the IAC track, I can just play the musical parts on the keyboard and don't have to press any other controls or even look at the laptop.

I'm not sure yet how well this method would work if I wanted to have a different song on the next scene. Also, at the end of the arrangement, I have to delete the MIDI data inside each loop after I record. I guess I could just overwrite the clip each time, but something doesn't feel clean about that for some reason.

Calagan
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:44 am

Re: Live looping limitatiions in Arrangement view

Post by Calagan » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:35 am

Very interested too in your device schlam.
And very interesting discussion too...

If I can give some advice, you should think about all the requirements someone could have when wanting to midi loop in a live context - because it seems we have each different ones.

In my case, my whole live rig with Ableton looks like that :
- I'm using Live to play songs with predetermined tempo and arrangement
- Each scene is a song
- For each scene, I've got audio clips (for prerecorded sequences) and midi clips (for vsti).
- Each clip lenght is based on what I need for the song, but generally it's the same lenght as the song
- the arrangement of the song is embedded in each clip of each track in terms of automations (+3db on the chorus for exemple) and features I need (for exemple, I mapped the Live pitch plugin to my keyboard, so when I want to change instrument manually, I just need to push a button that gets me +3 or -3 octaves, where my vsti is placed : bass can be from C-2 to C1, and keyboard from C1 to C3).
- The embedded automation of each clip includes a chain selector automation so it selects the vsti rack I need for each scene
- If I want to midi loop a sequence I'm playing, the most useful could be to be able to turn on the midi looping device placed in the rack corresponding to the scene/midi clip with a simple button push, then loop my sequence, then push another button to play it, stop it and be done with it and being able to play something else on another instrument

The built-in Live looper can't do that, because its midi mapping is perpetual. You can't make it react just to a predetermined CC (for exemple, CC15, toogle mode). It needs to be a perpetual mapping so you are loosing this particular CC to be used for the rest of the Live set. And if you need 3 or 4 different loopers in your set at different moment, it becomes a mess.
Actually, a copy of the built-in live looper with 2 added features : midi looping (instead of just audio looping) and non-perpetual mapping (make it react to a specific CC, not via the Live midi mapping) could be the GREATEST device ever for me.

I don't know if it's possible to hack the built-in Live looper like if it was a M4L device, but it could be great...

[jur]
Site Admin
Posts: 5306
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Ableton

Re: Live looping limitatiions in Arrangement view

Post by [jur] » Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:11 pm

If you haven't yet, read this BinkBeats article (there's also awesome videos) and I'm sure you'll find a lot of inspirations and helps to create your live looping setup. He also shared he's live looping M4L device.
Although he's doing it in Session view (maybe you should really try to use Session...) he's working with highly prepared (and automated) sets, so it sounds a lot like what you're trying to achieve.
Ableton Forum Moderator

Tarantulope
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:15 am

Re: Live looping limitatiions in Arrangement view

Post by Tarantulope » Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:11 am

So I made a song using the IAC driver to automate an entire arrangement of a song. check it out, I applied basically everything discussed above.

Here's my vid:

https://youtu.be/jx_9h2yRK9A

Calagan
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:44 am

Re: Live looping limitatiions in Arrangement view

Post by Calagan » Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:15 pm

Tarantulope wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:11 am
So I made a song using the IAC driver to automate an entire arrangement of a song. check it out, I applied basically everything discussed above.

Here's my vid:

https://youtu.be/jx_9h2yRK9A
Great demonstration !
It's truly cool (and a nice performance), but it's only a one song looping process.
I don't think it's possible to loop anything like that in a more complex Live set, with already plenty of scenes, songs, instruments etc etc.
or at least it seems to be a workflow killer.

Post Reply