Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
aklisiewicz
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:33 am

Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Post by aklisiewicz » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:09 am

I have a setup with BEHRINGER audio/midi interface. I also have 2 sets of speakers. One is a stand alone set of studio monitors connected directly to BEGRINGER UMC-404. Another one is a typical Sound Blaster set with subwoofer connected to on-board audio jack. It worked OK in the past but after doing some recent modifications of my system it doesn't work as expected anymore. The problem is that once I open LIVE the studio monitor would play all the sounds form LIVE but not from other sources. When I close LIVE then they become available and will play. The problem is that when I have a project opened and want for example play something from the web browser I have to switch to my other PC speakers to listen.

When I use my headphones it is also very frustrating as my headphones are connected to BEHRINGER. I tried all combinations of things and so far got some results with ASIO4ALL, but it keeps crashing. Those problems started when I upgraded from Live10 to v11. Not sure if this is related because I use Windows10-Pro and obviously the way this OS handles sound is below any criticism. - just absolutely terrible. We have to deal however with what is because Microsoft is interested and monitoring your life not implementing what users want.

Just a moment ago I tried to edit some sample in AUDACITY (which is connected as my external editor) and despite I set it up to output sound into my BEGRINGER it makes no sound. Super frustrating. Most likely neither Ableton or Audacity is to blame, because this is an internal Windows issue, but I'm looking for some kind of workaround,...

Perhaps there is some console program or something which would allow better sound routing in Windows. If anybody has some suggestions I would greatly appreciate.
"You are what you think you are"
Sadarahu

aklisiewicz
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:33 am

Re: Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Post by aklisiewicz » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:01 pm

I have done another test which suggests there is something wrong with Ableton (in a sense how it handles th audio outputs) or in my BEHRINGER driver.
1) I restarted PC, opened YT video and started playing some music from YT.
2) I opened LIVE11

The moment Live started I've herd 2 cracking sounds and the sound from the browser disappeared. So why Live takes the sound output in a dedicated manner that the other programs cannot use it (until Live is closed) ? Is this normal behavior ?
"You are what you think you are"
Sadarahu

Mark Williams
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Location: Kent

Re: Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Post by Mark Williams » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:06 pm

normal behaviour due to Asio driver, not all Asio drivers are multi-client capable, I doubt Behringers are, Focusrites are thou.
Live 11, M1 Mac Mini, Push 2, Scarlett 18i20 & ADA8200, Softube Console 1 Mk2, Deepmind12, Hydrasynth, Cobalt 8M, Moog Subsequent 25, IK Uno Synth Pro, Plethora X3, Nord Drum 3P

jestermgee
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Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:38 am

Re: Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Post by jestermgee » Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:51 pm

Yep, that is how ASIO works 1:1.

Sounds like you should be using something like this (which I use for multi-monitor setup):

Image

aklisiewicz
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:33 am

Re: Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Post by aklisiewicz » Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:02 am

After spending 2 hours with Microsoft support finally I have learned few things and resolved an issue of sharing external interface with LIVE and OS. Now I could play both LIVE and Audacity, browser etc at the same time IF....

and there is a big problem with ABLETON

...if LIVE11 works as expected. Unfortunately, it does not ! To make this feature working, one must set up LIVE settings to 48k sample rate. When I switch to 44.1k the audio does not work anymore in Windows (while Live is opened). The problem with this is that LIVE screws my sound in the projects completely when I do this, so I get sound but existing tracks get damaged (that means audio tracks get WARP applied - for unknown reason) and midi tracks do not play at all. When I try to switch back from 46k to 44.1k LIVE crashes every time. I understand that this might be also a driver problem (for my BEHRINGER interface), but how can we narrow it down or find a workaround...(?)

I researched the forum and this seems to be a problem since Live9 carried over to v10 and v11. What a shame ....!

I really do not know why there are such issues and would like Ableton to participate in this thread so we can figure out how to fix this.
Any insight appreciated.
"You are what you think you are"
Sadarahu

aklisiewicz
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:33 am

Re: Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Post by aklisiewicz » Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:09 am

jestermgee - yes this setup might work as well but since I have two audio devices already (on-board-audio) + external midi/audio I see no reason to purchase expensive Presonus. I have had one of those in the past years ago and it fired one day...

Not sure about Mac but Windows is terrible in sound management and I wish those who designed the whole sound management get fired! The main problem is that the changes in OS are not always updated (switching output) and also OS is terrible in cooperating with the driver software. To make things worse, many drivers for audio (that includes my Behringer) suck! Poo features, some are only 32bit, terrible (or none) interface etc....

Yes if one has few hundreds $ to spend on interface which can handle multiple set of speakers it would work but many people (including myself) use PC for other purposes and need OS/on-board audio. Presonus device also does not solve the problem when LIVE takes over dedicated solution over the OS sound channells.
"You are what you think you are"
Sadarahu

jestermgee
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Re: Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Post by jestermgee » Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:45 am

Well it works for me using multiple audio interfaces plus 8 channels out of my main audio interface into a mixer, no complaints about windows audio management since Win10 is pretty good at managing multiple audio outputs and after 12 years I have never had it "fired one day". I do however, set about designing systems and selecting components with the forward vision of what I will do with them one day rather than trying to patch and tweak things after the fact. I never need to use my second audio interface as the Octa capture handles all the IO and both ASIO and windows audio from different outputs without issue fed into 2 sets of monitors and sub all selectable and controlled via the central station with cue feed to a headphone distribution amp.

I also have no issue switching between 48/44K but it's a well known fact that for shared audio to work in Windows you need to have the OS and application set to the same sample rate which is why my system audio is 48k along with projects. If you change the sample rate when Live is OPEN this can cause some instruments to become screwed as many will have an internal selection for samples or synthesis to match the sample rate and wont always switch when the DAW does so maybe check that you can set things BEFORE loading Live.

Not sure how many times I can say this but just because you have a problem does not mean the world (and everyone in it) is at fault. If a transport company has a driver and he crashes 2 trucks a week, at some point they have to stop thinking all the trucks are faulty

Mark Williams
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Location: Kent

Re: Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Post by Mark Williams » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:21 am

No issues on my Win 10 setup with Focusrite 18i20, Asio drivers are fine and allow multi client usage and changing of sample rate, maybe aklisiewicz you should try looking at own setup, as the sounds like something within your setup is wrong, instead of blaming everything else as usual.
Live 11, M1 Mac Mini, Push 2, Scarlett 18i20 & ADA8200, Softube Console 1 Mk2, Deepmind12, Hydrasynth, Cobalt 8M, Moog Subsequent 25, IK Uno Synth Pro, Plethora X3, Nord Drum 3P

aklisiewicz
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:33 am

Re: Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Post by aklisiewicz » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:12 am

AGRHGHRHGHR! I was to happy to quickly. The multiple outputs worked for few days and now it stopped again. Ableton takes exclusive control over my monitor speakers and cannot use then while Live is opened. Windows sound management really sucks! that is what happens when the founder leaves and tries to be a God to fix climate changes :-(
Those who use Windows really need to keep complaining to Microsoft to improve Windows sound garbage. I wish there is Ableton Live for Linux...
"You are what you think you are"
Sadarahu

Mark Williams
Posts: 898
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:43 pm
Location: Kent

Re: Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Post by Mark Williams » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:44 am

or try using an interface with drivers that allow multi-client usage as previously advised.
Live 11, M1 Mac Mini, Push 2, Scarlett 18i20 & ADA8200, Softube Console 1 Mk2, Deepmind12, Hydrasynth, Cobalt 8M, Moog Subsequent 25, IK Uno Synth Pro, Plethora X3, Nord Drum 3P

aklisiewicz
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:33 am

Re: Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Post by aklisiewicz » Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:53 pm

well I do not think I am interested in investing in a new interface. The one I have allows A/B outputs, but I only have one set of studio monitors. the other speakers are simply PC type speakers, not so good quality and they have 3.5mm jack. It is not so much the matter of the speakers or hardware. The problem lies in OS/Live. Despite the settings for the output are changed and setup correctly LIVE takes exclusive access to the speakers and that is the problem. Even with one set of speakers I cannot sue them at the same time with ABLLETON and other apps.
I was able to fix this somehow playing with the speaker/output settings and it worked fine for a week or so and then something got messed up again. I am pretty sure it is an interaction between LIVE and Windows but not really sure which one to blame.
"You are what you think you are"
Sadarahu

Mark Williams
Posts: 898
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:43 pm
Location: Kent

Re: Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Post by Mark Williams » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:33 am

Then carry on as you are, as yet again you dont want to listen.
Live 11, M1 Mac Mini, Push 2, Scarlett 18i20 & ADA8200, Softube Console 1 Mk2, Deepmind12, Hydrasynth, Cobalt 8M, Moog Subsequent 25, IK Uno Synth Pro, Plethora X3, Nord Drum 3P

just_in
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:55 pm

Re: Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Post by just_in » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:04 pm

Mark Williams wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:06 pm
normal behaviour due to Asio driver
Not at all. Normal ASIO drivers support ASIO+WDM just fine, as long as you keep the sample rate consistent. The way ASIO4ALL behaves is the exception, not the norm. And ASIO4ALL is not really an ASIO driver, anyway.
not all Asio drivers are multi-client capable, I doubt Behringers are, Focusrites are thou.
Interestingly enough, it's kinda the opposite. Behringers support both ASIO+WDM and ASIO+ASIO (aka multiclient ASIO), whereas Focusrites only support ASIO+WDM. Note, I'm talking about the Behringers that come with actual ASIO drivers, the UMC***HD range, not the lower end models.


Anyway, I don't have enough patience to handhold OP through this. He seems to have dug himself into a hole, with some ASIO4ALL on top, just to make things worse. My advice would be to either learn about Windows audio basics (which takes some searching and testing) or just get a Mac. Some things are simpler there, really.

Mark Williams
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Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:43 pm
Location: Kent

Re: Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Post by Mark Williams » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:15 pm

just_in wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:04 pm
Mark Williams wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:06 pm
normal behaviour due to Asio driver
Not at all. Normal ASIO drivers support ASIO+WDM just fine, as long as you keep the sample rate consistent. The way ASIO4ALL behaves is the exception, not the norm. And ASIO4ALL is not really an ASIO driver, anyway.
not all Asio drivers are multi-client capable, I doubt Behringers are, Focusrites are thou.
Interestingly enough, it's kinda the opposite. Behringers support both ASIO+WDM and ASIO+ASIO (aka multiclient ASIO), whereas Focusrites only support ASIO+WDM. Note, I'm talking about the Behringers that come with actual ASIO drivers, the UMC***HD range, not the lower end models.


Anyway, I don't have enough patience to handhold OP through this. He seems to have dug himself into a hole, with some ASIO4ALL on top, just to make things worse. My advice would be to either learn about Windows audio basics (which takes some searching and testing) or just get a Mac. Some things are simpler there, really.
That is not what is meant, Asio in general can only be addressed by 1 client i.e Ableton, and normally cannot be used by another client i.e Windows, developers have to write that support into their ASIO drivers, and not all do including Behringer. nothing to do with supporting other driver types. But the OP has a history of not listening to anyone anyway lol.
Live 11, M1 Mac Mini, Push 2, Scarlett 18i20 & ADA8200, Softube Console 1 Mk2, Deepmind12, Hydrasynth, Cobalt 8M, Moog Subsequent 25, IK Uno Synth Pro, Plethora X3, Nord Drum 3P

just_in
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:55 pm

Re: Seeting up multiple sound sources and speakers

Post by just_in » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:34 pm

Mark Williams wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:15 pm
That is not what is meant, Asio in general can only be addressed by 1 client i.e Ableton, and normally cannot be used by another client i.e Windows, developers have to write that support into their ASIO drivers, and not all do including Behringer.
I know that's what you meant, I'm just saying it's wrong. By WDM I meant simply "Windows sounds from non-ASIO sources". (There's also WASAPI exclusive mode, but let's not complicate things.) The bottom line is that playing audio from ASIO and from your web browser at the same time works just fine, with just about every ASIO-capable sound card out there, as long as the sample rate is the same.

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