Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
stringtapper
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Re: Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Post by stringtapper » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:13 pm

Are there even any VST 3 plugins that support MIDI 2.0 yet?
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Mark Williams
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Re: Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Post by Mark Williams » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:24 pm

Very little midi 2.0 gear either....
Live 11, M1 Mac Mini, Push 2, Scarlett 18i20 & ADA8200, Softube Console 1 Mk2, Deepmind12, Hydrasynth, Cobalt 8M, Moog Subsequent 25, IK Uno Synth Pro, Plethora X3, Nord Drum 3P

subparuser
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Re: Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Post by subparuser » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:35 am

We're still waiting for MIDI 1.0 to be implemented so I wouldn't hold my breath.

romariozen
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Re: Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Post by romariozen » Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:59 am

I believe that's not that easy. You won't be able to play your gear anyway I guess, until the companies start to release midi 2.0 suppport external instruments.
Your MPK or Push have exact amount of midi levels inside them. It's like download an upgrade for your monitor and increase its amount of pixels with that

nicobi
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Re: Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Post by nicobi » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:26 pm

romariozen wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:59 am
You won't be able to play your gear anyway I guess
Do not guess. MIDI 2.0 is fully backwards compatible to MIDI Version 1.

nicobi
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Re: Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Post by nicobi » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:32 pm

As it appears that the increased coding acitivity at Ableton - induced by the dramatic efficiency and feature progress in LPX, Reaper and Bitwig - indicates fixing Version 11 what should have been already in Version 10…

Ableton should first rewrite their Audio Engine and Audio Routing setup instead of implementing MIDI 2.0 in my book.

romariozen
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Re: Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Post by romariozen » Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:53 pm

nicobi wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:26 pm
romariozen wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:59 am
You won't be able to play your gear anyway I guess
Do not guess. MIDI 2.0 is fully backwards compatible to MIDI Version 1.
I mean you can't use all the 4 billion levels, only 128 anyway

grrrz
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Re: Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Post by grrrz » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:39 pm

what about poly aftertouch?

stringtapper
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Re: Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Post by stringtapper » Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:44 pm

Trevbo wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:33 am
stringtapper wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:13 pm
Are there even any VST 3 plugins that support MIDI 2.0 yet?
It’s already supported within the VST 3, it’s up to the DAW developers to implement midi2.0 before midi 2.0 hardware will work with it.
It's already supported within the VST 3 spec, but my question remains: are there any VST 3 plugins that support MIDI 2.0?
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romariozen
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Re: Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Post by romariozen » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:38 pm

Trevbo wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:00 pm
romariozen wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:53 pm
nicobi wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:26 pm


Do not guess. MIDI 2.0 is fully backwards compatible to MIDI Version 1.
I mean you can't use all the 4 billion levels, only 128 anyway
Not with midi 1.0 hardware gear but you get improvements like greatly increased midi clock accuracy etc..
I personally can't wait for that 4 billion smoothing, but I can suppose it will have an effect only for fast changing of the parameters. I think that despite its discrete nature of 128 levels, Ableton and other DAWs and plugins down't really jump from value to value, I think the plugins work somehow interpolating and don't change abruptly, but I could be wrong and just don't hear that, it's almost impossible to hear that difference, but who knows, maybe with 4 billion values we will get an extra realistic changes that we will hear by our subconsiousness as with 2% reverb for example that can't be heard but creates a feeling of space :|

jlgrimes
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Re: Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Post by jlgrimes » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:23 pm

romariozen wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:38 pm
Trevbo wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:00 pm
romariozen wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:53 pm


I mean you can't use all the 4 billion levels, only 128 anyway
Not with midi 1.0 hardware gear but you get improvements like greatly increased midi clock accuracy etc..
I personally can't wait for that 4 billion smoothing, but I can suppose it will have an effect only for fast changing of the parameters. I think that despite its discrete nature of 128 levels, Ableton and other DAWs and plugins down't really jump from value to value, I think the plugins work somehow interpolating and don't change abruptly, but I could be wrong and just don't hear that, it's almost impossible to hear that difference, but who knows, maybe with 4 billion values we will get an extra realistic changes that we will hear by our subconsiousness as with 2% reverb for example that can't be heard but creates a feeling of space :|
Correct. Pretty much every modern midi controller use some type of interpolation to smoothen the steps. Also Midi 1.0 supports higher resolution controllers than 127 steps. I believe 14 bit controllers can be used which goes up to like 16383 steps, which is probably good enough resolution for most applications.

4 billion steps while theoretically possible, wouldn't have a controller most likely capable of that precision but you would be able to fully capture the maximum resolution of the controller. But the bigger advantages would be tying the 4 billion steps to translate into more "human" parameters like displaying a 20-20khz range of Frequency than using 0-127 for a filter (for example). Also controller profiles sounds promsing of having controllers that are more user friendly in setting up.


I'm wondering how long this will take to really kick off (if it ever does). Music techonology like this can evolve pretty slowly. VST 3 was released in 2008 and it took Ableton 10 years to implement. Some DAWs still haven't implemented it yet.

So far I only know of one Midi 2.0 controller, and no DAW I know of has implemented Midi 2.0 yet. I guess once something like Cubase or Logic implements it, it will kick off a race to 2.0.

stringtapper
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Re: Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Post by stringtapper » Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:58 pm

Trevbo wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:58 pm
stringtapper wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:44 pm
Trevbo wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:33 am


It’s already supported within the VST 3, it’s up to the DAW developers to implement midi2.0 before midi 2.0 hardware will work with it.
It's already supported within the VST 3 spec, but my question remains: are there any VST 3 plugins that support MIDI 2.0?
That’s my point, until ableton implement midi 2.0 no plugins can receive midi 2.0 from a hardware controller which is midi 2.0 enabled. Be nice if ableton were proactive.
You are aware that Ableton Live is not the only DAW in the world, right? So how do you figure this is solely on Ableton?

My question still stands: are there any VST 3 plugins that support MIDI 2.0?

What that means is: name a plug-in that you know supports MIDI 2.0.
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Mark Williams
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Re: Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Post by Mark Williams » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:57 am

Trevbo wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:44 am
stringtapper wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:58 pm
Trevbo wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:58 pm


That’s my point, until ableton implement midi 2.0 no plugins can receive midi 2.0 from a hardware controller which is midi 2.0 enabled. Be nice if ableton were proactive.
You are aware that Ableton Live is not the only DAW in the world, right? So how do you figure this is solely on Ableton?

My question still stands: are there any VST 3 plugins that support MIDI 2.0?

What that means is: name a plug-in that you know supports MIDI 2.0.
It solely on ableton to implement the standard or we can’t use it.

As I already stated you first need ableton to implement the standard before you have the plugins devs look at this. What’s the point of a plug-in with midi 2.0 when it won’t work in the DAW? It’s like having midi on a hardware synth and no midi cable.
Not really, why should Ableton implement something which no one uses yet, example case was MPE, plugins and respective hardware had to be popular and used before being supported fully in Ableton. No point incurring costs developing something that no one currently uses or hardware supports.
Live 11, M1 Mac Mini, Push 2, Scarlett 18i20 & ADA8200, Softube Console 1 Mk2, Deepmind12, Hydrasynth, Cobalt 8M, Moog Subsequent 25, IK Uno Synth Pro, Plethora X3, Nord Drum 3P

Mark Williams
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Re: Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Post by Mark Williams » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:56 pm

Trevbo wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:04 pm

MPE was usable in bitwig years before Ableton, infact I switched to bitwig during this time. Its a good example of how slow ableton were to pick up on the trend.
Yet your still here complaining about what Ableton can/cannot do.


Not really slow, a tadge behind yes, but MPE is still not a must have mainstream device/plugin yet. Personally I couldnt care less what other DAWs can and cannot do.
Midi 2 will be years away yet, once hardware is readily available and used more then plugins & Ableton will follow.
Live 11, M1 Mac Mini, Push 2, Scarlett 18i20 & ADA8200, Softube Console 1 Mk2, Deepmind12, Hydrasynth, Cobalt 8M, Moog Subsequent 25, IK Uno Synth Pro, Plethora X3, Nord Drum 3P

[jur]
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Re: Midi 2.0 implementation in Ableton

Post by [jur] » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:20 pm

Trevbo wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:44 am
It solely on ableton to implement the standard or we can’t use it.
Many plugins offer a standalone version, so if your OS and your midi controller support midi 2.0 then you're good.
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