Synchronizing virtual instruments (without latency) with hardware instruments (with input latency)

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biatch
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:14 pm

Synchronizing virtual instruments (without latency) with hardware instruments (with input latency)

Post by biatch » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:25 pm

Hi, I'm using Ableton 9 with a PreSonus 1810 audio interface on Windows 10. A problem like this often comes up: say I work with a drum rack for which I programmed some Midi notes, and a hardware synth for which I also programmed some Midi notes. I start both tracks at the same time, but then the synth has to be sampled and suffers from input latency, causing a delay to the drum rack and making both sound "not in the groove". Is there a simple solution for this, e.g. some global delay for virtual instruments that can be set to equal the hardware instruments' input latency...?

Chancery
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:59 pm

Re: Synchronizing virtual instruments (without latency) with hardware instruments (with input latency)

Post by Chancery » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:15 am

The way I do it is by setting the recording audio track to receive the audio from the track that has the External Instrument, not from the audio interface itself. And monitoring set to Off.
Transients dead on the beat.

grrrz
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:54 pm

Re: Synchronizing virtual instruments (without latency) with hardware instruments (with input latency)

Post by grrrz » Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:31 pm

Chancery wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:15 am
The way I do it is by setting the recording audio track to receive the audio from the track that has the External Instrument, not from the audio interface itself. And monitoring set to Off.
Transients dead on the beat.
so you can't monitor through live; you use your direct monitoring option from the sound interface? does it work with midi as well?
It drived me mad for a while; but it's not hardware latency; for some reason live adds your I/O latency to the recording as part of auto latency compensation; even on midi track; unless you put the monitor to off. I don't understand the logic behind this.

Chancery
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:59 pm

Re: Synchronizing virtual instruments (without latency) with hardware instruments (with input latency)

Post by Chancery » Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:50 pm

grrrz wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:31 pm
so you can't monitor through live; you use your direct monitoring option from the sound interface? does it work with midi as well?
It drived me mad for a while; but it's not hardware latency; for some reason live adds your I/O latency to the recording as part of auto latency compensation; even on midi track; unless you put the monitor to off. I don't understand the logic behind this.
No, I never use the direct monitoring from the Interface.
I hear everything from the track that's got the External Instrument in it. It's the recording track that has the Monitor Off. No need to hear what that track is listening to.
I even use it when recording my guitars/bass, so I can print the output from Amplitube and get rid of the plug-in.
The only drawback I find with this method is you get a stereo track whether you like it or not.

grrrz
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:54 pm

Re: Synchronizing virtual instruments (without latency) with hardware instruments (with input latency)

Post by grrrz » Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:15 am

Chancery wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:50 pm
grrrz wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:31 pm
so you can't monitor through live; you use your direct monitoring option from the sound interface? does it work with midi as well?
It drived me mad for a while; but it's not hardware latency; for some reason live adds your I/O latency to the recording as part of auto latency compensation; even on midi track; unless you put the monitor to off. I don't understand the logic behind this.
No, I never use the direct monitoring from the Interface.
I hear everything from the track that's got the External Instrument in it. It's the recording track that has the Monitor Off. No need to hear what that track is listening to.
I even use it when recording my guitars/bass, so I can print the output from Amplitube and get rid of the plug-in.
The only drawback I find with this method is you get a stereo track whether you like it or not.
ok got it thanks. I think I had this problem but with midi; and for some reason there was no latency with the monitor off (but I couldn't hear what I was doing).

biatch
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:14 pm

Re: Synchronizing virtual instruments (without latency) with hardware instruments (with input latency)

Post by biatch » Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:45 pm

Chancery wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:15 am
The way I do it is by setting the recording audio track to receive the audio from the track that has the External Instrument, not from the audio interface itself. And monitoring set to Off.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean with the different tracks. Could you go into that again? I was thinking of a scenario where let's say there is midi track A with a software instrument, audio track B that receives a hardware synth signal from the audio interface, and midi track C which sends notes to the hardware synth, and the aim is to synchronize the audio of A and B.

Chancery
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:59 pm

Re: Synchronizing virtual instruments (without latency) with hardware instruments (with input latency)

Post by Chancery » Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:42 am

OK, first you need to understand that "MIDI tracks" are really MIDI/Audio tracks. They send MIDI from the clip to a software synth and this generates audio, and passes it on to the right in the device chain. All within the same track.
So this is no different with tracks that are sending MIDI to a hardware synth via an External Instrument device (Track C in your scenario). It sends MIDI to the synth and receives audio from it. All within the same track.

Now, in your scenario:
- Track A is sending MIDI to a software synth and generating audio.
- Track B. Get rid of it.
- Track C has, presumably, an External Instrument device in it.
This External Instrument device has a "MIDI To" dropdown menu to select where it's sending the MIDI to (your hardware synth) and another "Audio From" dropdown menu to select where it's receiving the audio from your synth (the Interface input where your synth is plugged into).
This way, on the same Track C, there are two things happening: it's sending MIDI to the synth, and receiving audio from it.

In this scenario, when you hit Play you're already listening to both, the hardware and software synths playing at the same time, hopefully in sync. Since both Track A and C are generating audio and sending it to the Master channel.

Then, when you want to sample (record) your hardware synth into an Audio track you do the following:
- Create an Audio track (Track B in your scenario).
- In the mixer section of that track, go to the "Audio From" dropdown menu, which presumably has "Ext. In" selected by default, and select Track C, however you named it. Remember Track C is already generating audio received from your hardware synth.
- The menu immediately below it will have "Post Mixer" selected. Leave it like that.
- Set Monitor to Off
- Record-arm it.
When you press Play you should see the meters in tracks B and C doing the same, only track B in grey.
Now you can just press Record and whatever is happening in Track C will be printed on Track B. Since it's playing in sync, it will get recorded in sync.

biatch
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:14 pm

Re: Synchronizing virtual instruments (without latency) with hardware instruments (with input latency)

Post by biatch » Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:55 pm

Well thank you so much for spelling it out in detail! It still took me three reads to realize that by External Instrument device you mean a device inside Ableton and not a device on my desk... it all makes perfect sense now!! :) I will use this from now on. Also, when I read about that device, I came across the global option "Reduce Latency When Monitoring" which addresses my initial question without using the External Instrument device.

Chancery
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:59 pm

Re: Synchronizing virtual instruments (without latency) with hardware instruments (with input latency)

Post by Chancery » Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:52 am

LOL the key was in the capitalisation of External Instrument, sorry...
Glad you found a solution. I personally don't like, or ever use, the Reduce Latency When Monitoring option. I find it's a double-edged sword. It gives me endless syncing headaches elsewhere.

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