Latest beta is fantastic!

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Machinesworking
Posts: 11416
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Latest beta is fantastic!

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:52 pm

grrrz wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:36 pm
Machinesworking wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:23 am
.marc. wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:53 pm
thank you very much! will a AU/Rosetta-Version has any disadvantages?
People are reporting a 10% CPU hit on average.
most importantly is it stable? even with a lot of intel plug ins?
Personally I limit the Intel plug ins to just a few. Just my luck that I had decided to use VST as a main plug in type in songs for the last 7 or so years, VST plug ins will not be recognized at all in a Live Set from your Intel machine. So I have a lot of work to do to open old songs on the Air. Basically to do this I need to save the plug in settings as a preset, then instantiate it as AU, open the preset, for every plug in a song. To top it off going forward I'm keeping massive libraries for Kontakt and East West on the old Mac so those plug ins will be transfered to Vienna Ensemble Pro to be hosted on the Mac Pro. This is the worst part of the whole switch IMO, if you used VST for easy transfer between PC and Mac, or Bitwig, your're now stuck with a lot of housecleaning to get compatibility when transferring to M1.

Personally I haven't gone through and installed every plug in I own on the M1, but Amplitube and the VEP plug in are pretty stable. The question is a reminder I'm going to need to do this soon, mostly I've been reluctant to add a bunch of Rosetta plug ins to the laptop, but it's about time to just do it and start transferring songs.

[jur]
Site Admin
Posts: 5307
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Ableton

Re: Latest beta is fantastic!

Post by [jur] » Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:08 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:52 pm
Personally I limit the Intel plug ins to just a few. Just my luck that I had decided to use VST as a main plug in type in songs for the last 7 or so years, VST plug ins will not be recognized at all in a Live Set from your Intel machine. So I have a lot of work to do to open old songs on the Air. Basically to do this I need to save the plug in settings as a preset, then instantiate it as AU, open the preset, for every plug in a song...
I'm in the same boat. I decided to use native Live/M4L devices only probably 10 years ago. Of course there's a few plugins I need, like Amplitube and Kontakt just because Live simply can't provide what they do.
I always used the AU version of this few 3rd party plugins since I never had a windows machine, but a couple years ago or so I decided to switch them to VST for the sake of windows/mac compatibility of my sets in the event I'll stop using macOS (which I love) at some point when I'd need a new machine (because I DON'T love Apple).
Well, now m1 machines are here and I definitely won't switch to windows! But I'm in the process of migrating my sets and I'm facing the same pita which is to switch my VST versions back to AU. :lol:
Unfortunately there's no over way to do it than manually...
FOrtunately it's cold outside
Ableton Forum Moderator

grrrz
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:54 pm

Re: Latest beta is fantastic!

Post by grrrz » Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:55 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:52 pm
grrrz wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:36 pm
Machinesworking wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:23 am


People are reporting a 10% CPU hit on average.
most importantly is it stable? even with a lot of intel plug ins?
Personally I limit the Intel plug ins to just a few. Just my luck that I had decided to use VST as a main plug in type in songs for the last 7 or so years, VST plug ins will not be recognized at all in a Live Set from your Intel machine. So I have a lot of work to do to open old songs on the Air. Basically to do this I need to save the plug in settings as a preset, then instantiate it as AU, open the preset, for every plug in a song. To top it off going forward I'm keeping massive libraries for Kontakt and East West on the old Mac so those plug ins will be transfered to Vienna Ensemble Pro to be hosted on the Mac Pro. This is the worst part of the whole switch IMO, if you used VST for easy transfer between PC and Mac, or Bitwig, your're now stuck with a lot of housecleaning to get compatibility when transferring to M1.

Personally I haven't gone through and installed every plug in I own on the M1, but Amplitube and the VEP plug in are pretty stable. The question is a reminder I'm going to need to do this soon, mostly I've been reluctant to add a bunch of Rosetta plug ins to the laptop, but it's about time to just do it and start transferring songs.
well I'm wondering at which point you won't gain much from switching from the rosetta version to the native version when you have a lot of non-native plug-ins. Also I've red people saying they have crashes and latency with intel plug-in in native version (I think it was in logic). Not sure that's really a problem though. I'm also curious to know if Rosetta consumes a lot of RAM; I'm having a bit of trouble when I have a lot of VSTs; mostly it seems the GUI from arturia plug-ins will eat away your memory (when I open live it uses 3,5 GB; if I open every plug-in I'm up to 5,5 GB). I chose only 8 GB because that's what I had until now and didn't have any issue; but now maybe I'm gonna run into problems because of this. Also a lot of time heavy sessions tend to trigger a crash when I close live (live will close; then maybe 30 seconds later I'll get a crash report).

Mark Williams
Posts: 898
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:43 pm
Location: Kent

Re: Latest beta is fantastic!

Post by Mark Williams » Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:59 pm

[jur] wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:08 pm

Well, now m1 machines are here and I definitely won't switch to windows! But I'm in the process of migrating my sets and I'm facing the same pita which is to switch my VST versions back to AU. :lol:
Unfortunately there's no over way to do it than manually...
FOrtunately it's cold outside
Feel your pain there lol, I jumped from a Windows PC earlier this year, and had that same task of changing all my VST presets over to AU, just finished couple weeks ago. Now Im ready for Live to be M1 native :)
Live 11, M1 Mac Mini, Push 2, Scarlett 18i20 & ADA8200, Softube Console 1 Mk2, Deepmind12, Hydrasynth, Cobalt 8M, Moog Subsequent 25, IK Uno Synth Pro, Plethora X3, Nord Drum 3P

grrrz
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:54 pm

Re: Latest beta is fantastic!

Post by grrrz » Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:09 pm

[jur] wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:08 pm


I'm in the same boat. I decided to use native Live/M4L devices only probably 10 years ago. Of course there's a few plugins I need, like Amplitube and Kontakt just because Live simply can't provide what they do.
I decided this too 5 years ago; but then took the plunge again when I bought the full arturia suite; and a few other things (waves; izotope; AAS CV-1) during the last black friday. Initialy I needed only a few synths (because analog was too limited) but I went overboard. The arturia effects are nice but I feel they're a bit more CPU and RAM hungry than the included ones. The synths/instruments as well (some take forever just to open the plug-in window). Hope the M1 version will work smoother.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11416
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Latest beta is fantastic!

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:47 pm

[jur] wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:08 pm
I'm in the same boat. I decided to use native Live/M4L devices only probably 10 years ago. Of course there's a few plugins I need, like Amplitube and Kontakt just because Live simply can't provide what they do.
I always used the AU version of this few 3rd party plugins since I never had a windows machine, but a couple years ago or so I decided to switch them to VST for the sake of windows/mac compatibility of my sets in the event I'll stop using macOS (which I love) at some point when I'd need a new machine (because I DON'T love Apple).
Well, now m1 machines are here and I definitely won't switch to windows! But I'm in the process of migrating my sets and I'm facing the same pita which is to switch my VST versions back to AU. :lol:
Unfortunately there's no over way to do it than manually...
FOrtunately it's cold outside
Yeah, I've got a solid month off here probably, so I'll be porting... but unlike you I've always used a ton of third party plug ins, in case I ported the song over to DP or Logic etc. and because there's nothing really like Pigments, Falcon, etc. in Live or any other DAW for that matter, the closest it comes is Alchemy in Logic, or making a CPU intensive version of one part of those instruments in Max4Live. Plus Diva, Kontakt, Amplitube are in their own categories really. I've decided to skip Kontakt for the most part on the M1 and just host the libraries in VEP on the old mac Pro here with 96GB RAM, thus getting the Air instead of the M1 Max for over 5K.

Never really got the Apple hate though? the same people you don't like (Apple) are making an OS you do like. You're not the first person to bend the knee to the parade of Apple haters that act like M1 is a terrible thing because the code changed, or Apple rigged Catalina to force developers to jump through hoops for no reason, never mind that months later M1 is announced and all the code tweaks for Catalina made it that much easier to port to M1. Any large corporation has elements that are not cool, price points that seem crazy, things that drive people mad, it's like kicking water uphill to be upset about it, and for whatever reason Apple has always taken a disproportionate amount of heat. People that like the OS will say they don't like the company, conversely Microsoft just gets no respect or shine at all, but if someone is a fan of Windows, they defend Microsoft pretty solidly.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11416
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Latest beta is fantastic!

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:01 pm

grrrz wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:55 pm
well I'm wondering at which point you won't gain much from switching from the rosetta version to the native version when you have a lot of non-native plug-ins.
I think that really depends on how new your laptop is. I have a 15" 2012 Macbook Pro here, the Air crushes it completely, so in a set with all Rosetta plug ins that 10% CPU hit just doesn't matter. In general the CPU difference unless you had a 6 core i7 or 8 core i9 MBP, is going to be significantly better in the old M1, and the newer M1 Pro and Max being 1.6x faster it's even more extreme.

Also I've red people saying they have crashes and latency with intel plug-in in native version (I think it was in logic). Not sure that's really a problem though. I'm also curious to know if Rosetta consumes a lot of RAM; I'm having a bit of trouble when I have a lot of VSTs; mostly it seems the GUI from arturia plug-ins will eat away your memory (when I open live it uses 3,5 GB; if I open every plug-in I'm up to 5,5 GB). I chose only 8 GB because that's what I had until now and didn't have any issue; but now maybe I'm gonna run into problems because of this. Also a lot of time heavy sessions tend to trigger a crash when I close live (live will close; then maybe 30 seconds later I'll get a crash report).
Those are good points, I'm rearranging my studio right now, to fit it into a laptop centric setup since I've used a Mac Pro for years now etc. but I'll run some tests when I'm done. I bought the 16GB model and Activity Monitor reads about 10-11GB RAM usage, but I would bet DAWs just grab RAM to create a buffer, i.e. it doesn't use more RAM to open more plug ins etc.

As far as crash on quit, that's been an issue in my dinosaur DAW DP11 (and 10 before it), on Mojave and Big Sur with Live, so it might be due to changes in the DAWs for future proofing, or VST3, MPE etc. somehow messing with the DAW as it quits. Honestly it's probably a security issue with OSX, i.e. it freaks out when DP or Live close access to parts of the library that give it advanced access. This is another thing to check, does Live and/or DP have full access in Security preferences? The good part is it really is the most meaningless crash, it doesn't corrupt anything, it's just annoying that's all.

grrrz
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:54 pm

Re: Latest beta is fantastic!

Post by grrrz » Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:33 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:01 pm
I bought the 16GB model and Activity Monitor reads about 10-11GB RAM usage, but I would bet DAWs just grab RAM to create a buffer, i.e. it doesn't use more RAM to open more plug ins etc.

As far as crash on quit, that's been an issue in my dinosaur DAW DP11 (and 10 before it), on Mojave and Big Sur with Live, so it might be due to changes in the DAWs for future proofing, or VST3, MPE etc. somehow messing with the DAW as it quits. Honestly it's probably a security issue with OSX, i.e. it freaks out when DP or Live close access to parts of the library that give it advanced access. This is another thing to check, does Live and/or DP have full access in Security preferences? The good part is it really is the most meaningless crash, it doesn't corrupt anything, it's just annoying that's all.
There's a significant difference in ram usage when I create a session with a lot of plugins; then close live and reopen it. The ableton live RAM usage when I reopen the same session will be significantly lower; and get gradually up as I just open the plugin interface. The memory management in OSX is insanely complex; but it will create a virtual memory buffer that doesn't translate to your physical memory, and compress some of it.
The important metric to know if you have high RAM usage is the memory pressure; The mac will use as much ram as it can but even if it uses 75% not including caching it's not necessarily bad. The memory pressure is a percentage; it will get orange then red if you lack memory. The quantity of swap will also be an indication of high ram usage. In my case when live uses 6 GB (the most I've seen it use); I'm close to red; activating plugins is laggy; but the audio plays fine and I use 300 MB of swap so I have probably still have some room before it actually grinds to a halt. Also I suspect a high quantity of compressed memory will affect performances (you'll need some CPU ressources to compress/decompress your RAM). Thing is before getting those plugins and on my old mac mini setup live never got over 3 GB of RAM, and I'd never seen the pressure get above green; even with 8 GB.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11416
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Latest beta is fantastic!

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:23 pm

grrrz wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:33 pm
Thing is before getting those plugins and on my old mac mini setup live never got over 3 GB of RAM, and I'd never seen the pressure get above green; even with 8 GB.
Curious, Arturia's instruments are all native M1 now, it's just the FX collection that's still working in Rosetta, but they as far as I know all use those big graphics libraries for their GUIs. So is it just in the Rosetta FX that you're seeing significantly higher RAM? or both?

grrrz
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:54 pm

Re: Latest beta is fantastic!

Post by grrrz » Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:59 am

Machinesworking wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:23 pm
grrrz wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:33 pm
Thing is before getting those plugins and on my old mac mini setup live never got over 3 GB of RAM, and I'd never seen the pressure get above green; even with 8 GB.
Curious, Arturia's instruments are all native M1 now, it's just the FX collection that's still working in Rosetta, but they as far as I know all use those big graphics libraries for their GUIs. So is it just in the Rosetta FX that you're seeing significantly higher RAM? or both?
I still use the stable release of live so everything is still rosetta. I'm waiting for the official release of 11.1.

[jur]
Site Admin
Posts: 5307
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Ableton

Re: Latest beta is fantastic!

Post by [jur] » Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:11 am

I hope you're all taking the time to report your L11.1b issues on Centercode :wink:

@Machinesworking: the Apple "hate" is mostly a capitalism hate but really my point wasn't to start a debate about these things, and as you know this forum isn't the place for discussing this. I just mentionned this to illustrate my point.
Ableton Forum Moderator

Machinesworking
Posts: 11416
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Latest beta is fantastic!

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:26 am

[jur] wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:11 am
I hope you're all taking the time to report your L11.1b issues on Centercode :wink:

@Machinesworking: the Apple "hate" is mostly a capitalism hate but really my point wasn't to start a debate about these things, and as you know this forum isn't the place for discussing this. I just mentionned this to illustrate my point.
Sure I get it, not politics but one fantastic post Ives development IMO was the reveal that the new M1 Pro and Max Macbooks are slightly thicker than their predecessors! 8O Engineers and fans of stable computers all can rejoice, aesthetics be dammed! :x

cids
Posts: 701
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:53 pm
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands

Re: Latest beta is fantastic!

Post by cids » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:38 am

.marc. wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:02 pm
what I don't understand with all these m1 and native and so on... maybe someone with this systems and this beta can tell me: Ableton 11.1 running native on the silicons (arm). but what is with alle the plugins? ok. ableton stock plugins will work. sure! but what if I have a plugin that is not silicon-native? does it run automatically only as AU or also as VST?

till now I don't have an M1 but maybe some has tested it already. what I need is sylenth1, serum and some fabfilter (they are native I know). for ALL other things I use ableton stock plugin-ins.

thanks for try to tell me how it functions with all these m1-things

marc
When you run Ableton 11.1 on a Mac M1 you can only use native/universal plugins (VST2/VST3/AU). Alternative is to run Ableton under Rosetta, then you will be able to run Intel and Universal plugins but with a performance impact because of the Rosetta translation layer
Mac Studio M2 Max and MacBook Pro M1

Genelec M030; Live 11.3.x and Live 12; macOS Sonoma

UAD Apollo Twin

Ableton Push 2

jpga
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:04 am

Re: Latest beta is fantastic!

Post by jpga » Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:41 am

ARA support?

Tarekith
Posts: 19072
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:46 pm
Location: Ableton Forum Administrator
Contact:

Re: Latest beta is fantastic!

Post by Tarekith » Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:57 pm

No.
Tarekith
Ableton Forum Administrator
https://tarekith.com

Post Reply