automation bug or feature ?

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schlam
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:51 am

automation bug or feature ?

Post by schlam » Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:31 pm

Hello

There is something I don't manage to avoid and which piss me off so much..
maybe someone has an advice..

problem : an automation lane at the beginning of a recording clip in arrangement view doen't behave the same
if it's the 1st clip you record in the live set or any another one.

Steps to reproduce :

-open a empty new live-set (important)

-click "arm automation button"

-arm a track

-go to arrangement view

-click the button to see automation lanes in arrangement view

-click play

-move a parameter of this track to a non-default value

-you can see a dotted red line moving. ok

-then press arrangement record

-wait a bit (important)

-look where the dotted line was when you pressed record

-move the same parameter than before

-stop recording

--->Then you can see that between the begining of the recorded clip and the moment where you first moved the parameter while recording
, the lane is : WHERE IT HAS TO BE and reflects the value of this parameter during this moment. =) perfect

Now click in the arrangement view some bars after the 1st recorded clip and reproduce all the same steps.

click stop.



Now, You can see that the automation lane between the beginning of this second clip and the moment you moved it IS NOT WHERE IT HAS TO BE ! It it still where the lane was at the end of the 1st clip even if it's not its real position, real position that Live noticed because the doted line was moving accordingly..but no. During all the beginning of the clip Live records a value that doesn't exist at this moment !

I really don't understand this thing !

Why an automation lane is not recorded at it's real position at the beginning of a "non 1st clip" and is well recorded in the 1st clip of a live set even if "reenable automation" is not on ??

please tell me there is a solution. It's the same in the last beta...

In my opinion, each time a clip is recorded, Live should create for each envelope a "breackpoint envelope" at the beginning and at the end of the clip
AND each time an envelope is recorded Live should behave each time exactly as it behaves when you open a new live set : Lane is recorded where the value IS at this moment and not where the value was in the last clip... It really doesn't make sens to me...


Thank you !

Julien

Chancery
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:59 pm

Re: automation bug or feature ?

Post by Chancery » Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:45 am

I say feature. Although in my opinion not very well implemented.
Live lets you try out different parameter values even when there's automation recorded, by temporarily disabling the automation lane and letting you take control of that parameter.

If you manually adjust a parameter that has already been automated, you're temporarily disabling that whole automation lane (the left-pointing arrow button at the top turns on and the recorded automation goes white). But the moment you start recording more automation on that lane, you're re-enabling that lane again (the button turns off) and therefore automation goes back to where it was before you moved it manually, ie. it goes back to the last recorded value.
If you want the new clip to start on a different automation value from the last one recorded, you need to manually click there to create an automation point.

schlam
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:51 am

Re: automation bug or feature ?

Post by schlam » Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:15 pm

Thank you for helping me.
I understand what you say but even with an already recorded automation it doesnt make sens in my opinion that Live behaves mike that after a 1st clip has been recorded.

In my live.set I have almost 500 automations lanes that all are recorded when I hit "record". It s impossible (for each lane!) to know after a recording if this lane has a value or not which has changed since the last recording...It's a pity !

So does that mean that with Live it's just impossible, after recording a 1st shot of a new multitrack project with lot of automation, to :

- tweak the knobs of your setup while in pause.

- and just record it as it is sounding.

???

A so simple task is impossible ??

[jur]
Site Admin
Posts: 5275
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Location: Ableton

Re: automation bug or feature ?

Post by [jur] » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:14 pm

That behavior was introduced in Live 9. In the previous versions it worked like you're expecting.
As someone who does sound to picture, i have many automations on almost every clip and that change did piss me off sooooo much, and had no choice to adapt to a method that's not as convenient as it was. That's what it is... I don't remember clearly, but I guess this could be a consequence of adding automation recording in Session.
Anyway, my trick is to start recording (I set a loop around the clip, especially when I have a bunch of settings to record) and set all my parameters from Push (you can do it with other controlers or your mouse indeed) while the automation is recording.
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schlam
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:51 am

Re: automation bug or feature ?

Post by schlam » Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:56 pm

Salut Jur.


thank you for your workaround.

Sooo sad...

ohhh nooo, I have to install Live 8 ;(



But even when automation recording in session has been added, I really don't understand why this option in Live 8 has been disabled...
I cannot see a situation where it's important to do not record the value of a parameter when you have changed it..

Maybe it's to avoid conflict with something else (what?) but the way it has been done adds a big regression in my opinion.
For me it's still a bug.

We are talking about the automation of a parameter in a clip that doesn't exist yet.
So what is the point to keep a value nobody wants/chooses ?

At the minimum it should be possible to choose this so important behaviour type..isn't it ?


In Live 9 release notes page, I only see something close to that in the version 9.0.2 :

"bugfix :
When recording automation into a clip, the automation would not latch during the first iteration, but jump back to the last value. "


I don't know if it's related..


For information here is a picture of the problem
Image




---===!! Live 8 RuLeZ !!===---

schlam
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:51 am

Re: automation bug or feature ?

Post by schlam » Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:14 pm

A second problem with this bug (/feature??) is :

If live doesn't create "beginning and endind breakpoints" for automations at the beginning and at the end of each clip (and it should!) :

When you just move a clip or move the 1st or last breakpoint of a clip : you change the automation lane at the end of the precedent clip and at the beginning of the next one
Strange ( or what the F%§!°?~:*!!!! ) isn't it ?

When someone wants that moving a clip would change something in the clip before or after it ??

I am still very confused and will be very happy if a developer can explain us why it's not a bug...


LiVe 8_8

[jur]
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Re: automation bug or feature ?

Post by [jur] » Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:34 pm

schlam wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:14 pm
When you just move a clip or move the 1st or last breakpoint of a clip : you change the automation lane at the end of the precedent clip and at the beginning of the next one
Strange ( or what the F%§!°?~:*!!!! ) isn't it ?
While the general behavior isn't a bug but a design choice, unfortunately (I can't remember the reasons, but you can trust me that I complained as I much as I could back then...), this one is a bug if I think... and it's here from the start but probably not yet considered annoying enough to get higher priority on the todo list.
You can report to support@ableton.com, it's always a good thing to remind the team that users are getting PITA becuase of a bug.
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pottering
Posts: 1800
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:41 am

Re: automation bug or feature ?

Post by pottering » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:10 am

It is not really clear to me what this topic is actually about.

It says "automation", but it could be MIDI Controller Takeover, Arrangement Record and other things.

(EDIT: Not only Takeover changes behaviour, but adding to the confusion, some controllers don't seem to work with any Takeover settings, like Korg NanoKontrol, which may be specific or maybe it is all controllers that use Mackie...)

Furthermore, the manual clearly says there is difference in the behaviour depending on context.

Not clear what is driving what, if it is simply Clips, manual MIDI controller knob tweaking, mouse drag or M4L device.
♥♥♥

schlam
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:51 am

Re: automation bug or feature ?

Post by schlam » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:34 am

hello pottering
It is not really clear to me what this topic is actually about.
maybe it's my bad english..=)

When I talked about "automations" I was just talking of the red automations lanes in arrangement,
whatever with what they are moved (with mouse, maxforlive or Midi controller...) the problem is the same..
Could you point me where in the manual it's said that "difference in the behaviour depending on context. " ?

You don't thing this "bug/feature" is annoying ?

pottering
Posts: 1800
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:41 am

Re: automation bug or feature ?

Post by pottering » Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:38 am

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/autom ... ding-modes
The automation recording behavior differs depending on how you adjust parameters while recording. When using the mouse, recording stops immediately when you let go of the mouse button. This is referred to in some editing applications as “touch” behavior. When adjusting parameters via knobs or faders on MIDI controllers, recording will continue as long as you adjust the controller. When you let go, recording will continue until the end of the clip’s loop and then will “punch out” automatically. This is known as “latch” behavior in some applications.
♥♥♥

schlam
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:51 am

Re: automation bug or feature ?

Post by schlam » Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:17 pm

Thank you Pottering to point me there.
Yes, but it's not really linked to the problem.

I am not talking about automation recorded while recording..
....yes almost.=) but :

I just said that when you are not recording and when an automation lane already exists in the track,
whatever the "reenable automation" is switched on or off,
if you change a value and then record, this new value will not be recorded, even if Live notices during the pause that the value has changed..
it will be recorded when it change while recorded.

My picture shows the problem. You can only record the state of a parameter when :
-no automation already exists for it.
-with a new live.set


am I wrong ?

[jur]
Site Admin
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Re: automation bug or feature ?

Post by [jur] » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:35 pm

schlam wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:17 pm
You can only record the state of a parameter when :
-no automation already exists for it.
-with a new live.set
am I wrong ?
Well, you're wrong not the way you phrased it but... let's just remember that in your situation you either need to manually add a breakpoint, or set the parameter(s) to the desired value(s) while recording (from Push or any other midi controller, or with the mouse).
That's not as convenient as it was in the past, but that's not going to change either, so let's deal with it :wink:
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pottering
Posts: 1800
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:41 am

Re: automation bug or feature ?

Post by pottering » Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:22 am

I started on 9.1, so it seems I just can't grasp the problem. But I'll keep my eyes open for similar behaviour here.
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