Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

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evon
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Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

Post by evon » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:51 am

Well are we? Or or we just looking at graphics and pushing faders and knobs?

If not, how is it done? When I make an eq curve, I am not able to visualize in reality what is being done to the sound wave.

A sculptor can look at the wood and actually see what is being done to the physical medium.
Is anyone able to do this with a physical sound wave?
I would really like to get some feedback on this.
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Re: Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

Post by evon » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:53 am

I would think this is the appropriate forum for this question.
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Re: Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

Post by evon » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:55 am

Please don't tell me to just "use your ears".
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Re: Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

Post by Tarekith » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:15 am

I don’t think so. A sculptor may see or feel the changes they are making to their medium, but what we do isn’t visual so we hear it instead. Same thing, just different senses.
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Re: Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

Post by evon » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:27 am

I hear you. Anyway, am wondering if we started off on the wrong foot in the beginning. We are probably boxed in. Remember, when it was generally accepted that the world was flat.
Still think there should be a way to visualize the actual changes we make to our medium. That may be why we will never be able to fully master it. Food for thought.
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Re: Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

Post by Tarekith » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:35 am

I think we already do this, I just think you’re used to thinking with visual references. No offense meant at all.
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evon
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Re: Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

Post by evon » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:01 am

You are probably right. We are often manipulating complex sounds and not just individual sound waves one at a time, so probably what we have been doing is the best way right now.

I mean, a 1KHz is the same whether it is a sine, triangle etc. or complex wave. The same for amplitude, pitch etc.

Funny, because as I am writing this post, I start to actually visualize the physical effects on manipulating the characteristics of a given sound.
Like if I was to reduce the amplitude I am seeing a smaller ripple bouncing off walls all around. Increasing frequency, I am seeing a more compact ripple for example.

Probably it is just a matter of correlating the graphics I am looking at on screen to the actual physical sound I am working on.
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Re: Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

Post by evon » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:12 am

So why do we have to correlate anyway. Probably we need to take a look at the box.

I mean, why can't the graphics give us a closer relationship to what the sound is actually doing. Why are we looking at some lines on a xy axis when reducing a frequency for example? I know a few DAWs try to improve on this in certain instances.

Just hoping to wake up some young minds here. We need a revolution. Although, in many respects we have come a long way in what we can achieve currently with music production.
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Re: Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

Post by yur2die4 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:19 am

I think it goes both ways. We learn a lot from visualization, but we have to start thinking in the realm of audible texture and time. And the texture in itself has a lot of variables… the texture can be time-based intervals, or it can be harmonic texture.

I’d say one of the more visual tools for ‘shaping’ sound over time is the Spectrograph. It isn’t quite as scientific as the fft analyzer, but it gives a broader idea of what is happening over time. You could definitely look at a sound on the spectrograph and get an idea of what is happening. Whether it be a beat or a tone with overtones, a reverb, a delay, quiet or loud, etc.

I used to think the squiggles of an oscilloscope were helpful, and it can give you Some info, but it’s mostly just giving an idea of amplitude at the end of the day (you have to imagine various ways that different twists and turns might generate different arrays of overtone information).

Would be interesting to see a daw where all the audio clips could be presented as spectrographs instead of waveforms. Would give you a rreeeally different picture of what’s happening. Maybe a key that sort of changes the ‘angle’ of view, as one might be an overhead view while the other is the sum of all the components.

I’d argue though that a 1k sine is very very different from a 1k waveform of other types, especially with regard to ‘shaping’ sound. Though, Relatively the amplitude of the fundamental still conveys a strong relationship that we connect with its harmonically consonant counterparts. Plus, you can quickly ‘push’ a sine into the realm of the square with a bit of aggression :) .

But yeah, it’s nice to think and talk and share these concepts. Never know if it’ll open a new door in perception of sound.

I know that it’s easy after a while to forget the mystique of hearing sound in general. When I was younger and did not know the tools, my imagination visualized the environment where such sounds would happen. I still do that, but I also have Other ways of listening… and sometimes because of that, I’ll sit there hearing music that in my youth I’d have had absolutely no patience for… though on the flip side, there is a bit of music from my youth that I had no patience for due to realizations of clichés etc :P

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Re: Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

Post by evon » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:05 pm

yur2die4 wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:19 am

I’d argue though that a 1k sine is very very different from a 1k waveform of other types :P
I would argue that also. I believe that a a 1k is a 1k no matter the waveform. Without any added harmonics or anything else that would affect the timbre. My thoughts.
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Re: Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

Post by [jur] » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:32 pm

evon wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:05 pm
I believe that a a 1k is a 1k no matter the waveform. Without any added harmonics or anything else that would affect the timbre. My thoughts.
I think you're mixing things up a bit, or maybe over-thinking something that doesn't really offer anything to overthink: a single 1k harmonic/fundamental is a sine. As soon as there's harmonics, this isn't a sine anymore.
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Re: Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

Post by evon » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:41 pm

[jur] wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:32 pm
evon wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:05 pm
I believe that a a 1k is a 1k no matter the waveform. Without any added harmonics or anything else that would affect the timbre. My thoughts.
I think you're mixing things up a bit, or maybe over-thinking something that doesn't really offer anything to overthink: a single 1k harmonic/fundamental is a sine. As soon as there's harmonics, this isn't a sine anymore.
Seems as if I am learning something new. So there is no 1k Sawtooth for example? In other words, you are saying that each waveform has a specific frequency?
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Re: Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

Post by [jur] » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:59 pm

A single harmonic will always be a sine.
To produce a 1khz sawtooth you need the 1khz fundamental (which in itself is a sine) and every even+odd harmonics. All these harmonics are individual sines :wink:
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evon
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Re: Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

Post by evon » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:08 pm

You are indeed correct . Thanks for the refresher. So basically a sine is the only pure wave. Bet there are lots of other loggerheads here that never knew that. :D
Well, I guess that ends that argument.
What about the the topic of this post though, anymore learned instructions or ideas? Or does it not warrant a comment from thee? :mrgreen:
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Re: Are we visualizing sound when manipulating it?

Post by [jur] » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:14 pm

Well, we're doing music/sound... vision is quite a distraction actually. The more you look at something the less clearly and detailed you hear it.
We're very sensitive to what we see, and the plugins industry knows it quite well, right! We're being fooled constantly.
We are making music, we need our ears, that's it.
Something related, I'm always surprised at how many people now experience music in a e.g a party: in front of youtube looking at the screen (the video clips) 8O
"Video killed the radio star", it's never been so true!

Of course being able to correlate what you see with what you hear is often quite handy (and fascinating too), I'm thinking here about understanding a spectrogram and be more effective in Izotope RX for example, or being able to quickly edit sibilants or breaths in vocals or dialogues recordings without the need to listen to everything in realtime just by spotting them visually. Or check that your room isn't "lying" too much.
But these are very specific tasks, and I doubt you can master them without developing a solid hearing first.
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