Ableton Mixing Question

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Post Reply
SIGMA7
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:21 am

Ableton Mixing Question

Post by SIGMA7 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:50 pm

HI,

I have a question about mixing in Ableton 11.

I've been producing for many years although at a junior level. I am still learning and my question is this:

I start a new project file, select my samples and start composing, adjusting the volume levels of each track as I go along.

Now lets say I am running hot, like -1 dB on the master.

What I do to correct this is that I select all of the tracks (except for the master) and then move one volume slider down 4 dB which in turn moves ALL the selected tracks volume sliders down in sync.

I now have -5 dB in the master which is a good amount to leave for headroom for mastering later on.

Is that an ok way to do it or am I ruining my mix?

Thanks.

Tarekith
Posts: 19065
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:46 pm
Location: Ableton Forum Administrator
Contact:

Re: Ableton Mixing Question

Post by Tarekith » Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:14 pm

Nope, that’s a fine way to do it. You can also just turn the master fader down 4dB too, that’s what it’s there for. Either method is fine, and in this case there’s no downsides to either method.
Tarekith
Ableton Forum Administrator
https://tarekith.com

Angstrom
Posts: 14921
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Ableton Mixing Question

Post by Angstrom » Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:10 am

I'm always a bit wary of lowering all the faders as you described - selecting them all and moving one down. There are problems with this method
There are lots of post-fader gain dependent effects which will be impacted.

EG
the case where a bunch of tracks are bused to another. The three tracks are driving the bus channel effects. If they are gain dependent effects then a lower input gain will alter the sound.

EG. If we create three drum tracks and also an empty audio track called Bus. Now we rout the drums to the bus channel. Set Bus to monitor on, set the outputs of the drums to Bus. Put a Glue compressor on Bus.
Now if the Master is peaking and we lower drum tracks 1,2 and 3 the sound of Glue will subtly change.

That's one example of nonlinearity in the post fader stages. The send/ return section can cause issues too.

So. I usually either lower the gain in the master channel with a utility, if it's just a few DB. Or to do it "properly" I bus everything I can and lower the bus tracks and leave the children levels at wherever I mistakenly set them. Because if I start messing with the children the sound design usually changes ( it gets a lot cleaner 😆) .

SIGMA7
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:21 am

Re: Ableton Mixing Question

Post by SIGMA7 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:26 pm

Angstrom wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:10 am
I'm always a bit wary of lowering all the faders as you described - selecting them all and moving one down. There are problems with this method
There are lots of post-fader gain dependent effects which will be impacted.

EG
the case where a bunch of tracks are bused to another. The three tracks are driving the bus channel effects. If they are gain dependent effects then a lower input gain will alter the sound.

EG. If we create three drum tracks and also an empty audio track called Bus. Now we rout the drums to the bus channel. Set Bus to monitor on, set the outputs of the drums to Bus. Put a Glue compressor on Bus.
Now if the Master is peaking and we lower drum tracks 1,2 and 3 the sound of Glue will subtly change.

That's one example of nonlinearity in the post fader stages. The send/ return section can cause issues too.

So. I usually either lower the gain in the master channel with a utility, if it's just a few DB. Or to do it "properly" I bus everything I can and lower the bus tracks and leave the children levels at wherever I mistakenly set them. Because if I start messing with the children the sound design usually changes ( it gets a lot cleaner 😆) .
Oh wow, that is too advanced for me. I'm am still very beginner but it's good to know!

I would like to know though, I was told never to touch the master fader. To always leave it at zero. Is this correct? What is the purpose of the master fader?

Tarekith
Posts: 19065
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:46 pm
Location: Ableton Forum Administrator
Contact:

Re: Ableton Mixing Question

Post by Tarekith » Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:50 pm

To turn down the volume when the mix is too loud and potentially clipping. There's really no downsides unless you start turning it down more than say 40dB or so. In older DAWs it could potentially lead to a mixdown file with less resolution, but those days are long behind us now IMVHO.

Not touching the master fader is one of those bits of advice that was solid 10-15 years ago, but better coding has made it more or less irrelevant these days.

In general it's good audio engineering practice to still try and keep your mixdown levels out of the red though.
Tarekith
Ableton Forum Administrator
https://tarekith.com

Calagan
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:44 am

Re: Ableton Mixing Question

Post by Calagan » Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:41 pm

Another advice : find a good metering plugin (like dbmeter from tbproaudio : it’s free) and try to keep each track and each buss (master included) at -18db rms and/or -6db peak from the very beginning.
Each time you add processing, try to keep the same level.
When you will do this naturally, it will make your mixing life easier.

It’s good if you use hardware emulation plugins (they are calibrated to work good at this level) and it’s good when you set the levels, because each track has more or less the same level originally so your decisions regarding what track is important and what is not will be more clear.
It’s good too so you mix always with more or less the same level, so you find the level’s sweet spot with your monitors...
Finally, doing like that you usually obtain naturally a workable level on the master if you try to get -18dB RMS there too

hunterwiley
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:38 pm
Location: Oakland
Contact:

Re: Ableton Mixing Question

Post by hunterwiley » Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:41 am

Tarekith wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:14 pm
Nope, that’s a fine way to do it. You can also just turn the master fader down 4dB too, that’s what it’s there for. Either method is fine, and in this case there’s no downsides to either method.
Heya friend! Actually you will certainly run into troubles if you are lowering the master fader. Or really, adjusting it at all. I highly recommend not adjusting it. In order to have a "true" 0, and in order to use mix/mastering plugins or devices --especially limiters -- you need to have the master fader at 0. It's not the same thing as lowering the entirety of the tracks. And your rms levels will not be helpful or informative in making mix decisions since it's "off".

hunterwiley
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:38 pm
Location: Oakland
Contact:

Re: Ableton Mixing Question

Post by hunterwiley » Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:57 am

Tarekith wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:50 pm
To turn down the volume when the mix is too loud and potentially clipping. There's really no downsides unless you start turning it down more than say 40dB or so. In older DAWs it could potentially lead to a mixdown file with less resolution, but those days are long behind us now IMVHO.

Not touching the master fader is one of those bits of advice that was solid 10-15 years ago, but better coding has made it more or less irrelevant these days.

In general it's good audio engineering practice to still try and keep your mixdown levels out of the red though.
I'd sincerely like to learn something here -- what do you mean by "better coding"? As in, new plugins? it seems that when using a limiter with the ceiling set to -1db, and with the master faster pulled down to say -13db...well then it seems it's limiting at -14db. but then if you want to push more gain into the signal with various mix/mastering plugs or devices, or simply saturate your drum busses more, this limiter will quickly start squashing your signal....you're only ever going to be hitting -14db, as I understand. It seems to me that trying to hit a target rms level for mixing would now become much more complicated for the sake of doing something you could do on bus processing.

[jur]
Site Admin
Posts: 5275
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Ableton

Re: Ableton Mixing Question

Post by [jur] » Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:27 am

hunterwiley wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:57 am
it seems that when using a limiter with the ceiling set to -1db, and with the master faster pulled down to say -13db...well then it seems it's limiting at -14db. but then if you want to push more gain into the signal with various mix/mastering plugs or devices, or simply saturate your drum busses more, this limiter will quickly start squashing your signal....you're only ever going to be hitting -14db
Indeed, since the track's fader is post-fx.
Ableton Forum Moderator

Tarekith
Posts: 19065
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:46 pm
Location: Ableton Forum Administrator
Contact:

Re: Ableton Mixing Question

Post by Tarekith » Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:52 pm

As JUR stated, the master fader in Live is after any effects on the master channel. So lowering the master fader will have no impact at all to the signal being fed to a limiter on the master channel. Yes you could have some issues with the final output level if there’s a limiter on the track, but the OP didn’t mention using a limiter so my advice stands.

All this circles back to my advice to follow good engineering practices and keep an eye on the master meters to make adjustments when you can before you get to a situation like this.
Tarekith
Ableton Forum Administrator
https://tarekith.com

Post Reply