Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

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DigitalZen
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:22 pm

Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

Post by DigitalZen » Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:40 am

Sorry for the Newb question; I've downloaded the Live 11 trial, installed it on Win 10 laptop, working through the tutorials and basic audio recording functionality seems to work well, however my main goal for this software is to record guitar / vocal tracks as a solo artist, and, naturally, I need drums! All of the drum files, Many GB's worth of downloads I've found are based on drum kits, building drum grooves manually from scratch. I fully understand there are benefits to that approach but I simply don't have the time to manually map every bass kick, every snare, every hi-hat (Wish I did!!!). Can anyone please recommend some options for pre-built drum grooves that can be used as easily as possible to build a backing track for guitar? Genre's would be Rock, Blues, R&B styles. Just as an example; I have a Boss RC-500 loop station, this unit has all kinds of cool drum kits with pre-built beats, grooves, that allow dialing in the timing, tempo, and customize all beat parameters. Problem is there doesn't appear to be a direct way to import these beats into Ableton. Is there any similar functionality native to Ableton Live 11?

miyaru
Posts: 1267
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:08 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

Post by miyaru » Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:52 am

You can use the build in kits from Live, at least in my version, Live 10 Suite has many kits. For the grooves you can find all kind of MIDI files on the internet.
Greetings from Miyaru.
Prodaw i7-7700, 16Gb Ram, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd gen, ESI M4U eX, Reason 12, Live Suit 10, Push2, Presonus Eris E8 and Monitor Station V2, Lexicon MPX1,
Korg N1, Yamaha RM1x :mrgreen:

DunedinDragon
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:46 pm

Re: Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

Post by DunedinDragon » Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:14 pm

You can buy any number of different drum plugins and they all come with pretty extensive libraries of grooves and fills. EZ Drummer and Superior Drummer from Toontrack are two of the more popular ones. I use the Kontakt Studio Drummer and Abby Road kits mostly. But all of these come with lots of drum grooves and of course there's tons of free ones out there as well.

DigitalZen
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:22 pm

Re: Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

Post by DigitalZen » Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:42 am

"you can find all kind of MIDI files on the internet." --- can you elaborate on this just a little? Please try to be a clear as possible here, I'm not an Ableton pro, literally just installed this as a beginner. I've browsed all included drum files and none of them appear as "Grooves". They all contain individual drum sounds and the same sample rhythm for everything. I've probably downloaded 60 GB of drum files and have yet to find a usable groove beat for a simple guitar track.

"there's tons of free ones out there as well." --- again, any more details on this? What are the free ones?

miyaru
Posts: 1267
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:08 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

Post by miyaru » Thu Aug 25, 2022 7:53 am

DigitalZen wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:42 am
"you can find all kind of MIDI files on the internet." --- can you elaborate on this just a little? Please try to be a clear as possible here, I'm not an Ableton pro, literally just installed this as a beginner. I've browsed all included drum files and none of them appear as "Grooves". They all contain individual drum sounds and the same sample rhythm for everything. I've probably downloaded 60 GB of drum files and have yet to find a usable groove beat for a simple guitar track.

"there's tons of free ones out there as well." --- again, any more details on this? What are the free ones?
What we mean by that is when you do a search on the web to MIDI drumfiles you can find them in all kind of flavors. Has nothing to do with Ableton, MIDI files work with any DAW/Music Software. And yes the learning curve of Ableton Live is steep, but the manual is your best friend for the time coming :D .

These MIDI files can be dragged in a project in either session view or arrangement view ie.: wherever you want them too. At first it might be daunting, but within three weeks, you laugh about it.
Greetings from Miyaru.
Prodaw i7-7700, 16Gb Ram, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd gen, ESI M4U eX, Reason 12, Live Suit 10, Push2, Presonus Eris E8 and Monitor Station V2, Lexicon MPX1,
Korg N1, Yamaha RM1x :mrgreen:

miyaru
Posts: 1267
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:08 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

Post by miyaru » Thu Aug 25, 2022 7:55 am

Greetings from Miyaru.
Prodaw i7-7700, 16Gb Ram, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd gen, ESI M4U eX, Reason 12, Live Suit 10, Push2, Presonus Eris E8 and Monitor Station V2, Lexicon MPX1,
Korg N1, Yamaha RM1x :mrgreen:

DigitalZen
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:22 pm

Re: Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

Post by DigitalZen » Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:08 am

Downloaded a bunch of more files. Some "VST" files, and when I import and listen to them in Ableton, they sound horrible. Like "rock drums" that sound like my old casio keyboard from 1988. How can this be? I'm struggling with how bad this sounds and the fact it's 2022 and this stuff should sound excellent. Are there any actual artists on these boards that can please recommend some specific drum grooves for rock guitar? Looking for something basic, but something that sounds like actual drums (not electronic garbage sound) and something that could actually be used for live guitar backing tracks??

miyaru
Posts: 1267
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:08 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

Post by miyaru » Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:43 am

Are you looking for better sounds, or are you looking for MIDI files, or both?

Ableton is not known for Rock music producing, it can do it, but is proberly better known for electronic music.

You can also look out for drumloops or samples from rockdrums. Just type rock drum samples in google and of you go……
Greetings from Miyaru.
Prodaw i7-7700, 16Gb Ram, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd gen, ESI M4U eX, Reason 12, Live Suit 10, Push2, Presonus Eris E8 and Monitor Station V2, Lexicon MPX1,
Korg N1, Yamaha RM1x :mrgreen:

pottering
Posts: 1802
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:41 am

Re: Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

Post by pottering » Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:55 am

"Grooves" in Live are a very specific thing, a tool you use to both/either quantize and humanize MIDI or audio.

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/using-grooves/

Drum sample loops are called "Audio Clips", and MIDI loops are called "MIDI Clips" (file extension is .alc).

Just checked and Session Drums has a surprisingly small number of MIDI Clips.

Drum Booth is the Pack with most rock stuff.

Drive and Glow has some "indie" stuff with some electronic flavor mixed in.

Chop and Swing is the Hip-Hop-ish Pack, as many Hip-Hop beats are based on R&B and Blues beats some of its MIDI Clips may work for Rock, Blues, R&B.

Didn't check every single Pack in detail, but from my experience those are the ones with most rock stuff in Suite.

With Clips or Drum Racks that have a weird sound that bothers you in the middle, you can always click a key in the piano roll that triggers an electronic/weird sample and use "0" (zero) key to disable the notes, or just delete them. leaving only the most conventional drum hits. You can also delete a sound from a pad directly in the Drum Racks too.

You can add a Velocity device with some Random to make stuff a bit less "robotic". (You can also use the Grooves mentioned above).
♥♥♥

AbletonMASCHINE
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:27 am

Re: Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

Post by AbletonMASCHINE » Sat Aug 27, 2022 6:12 am

DigitalZen wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:08 am
Downloaded a bunch of more files. Some "VST" files, and when I import and listen to them in Ableton, they sound horrible. Like "rock drums" that sound like my old casio keyboard from 1988. How can this be? I'm struggling with how bad this sounds and the fact it's 2022 and this stuff should sound excellent. Are there any actual artists on these boards that can please recommend some specific drum grooves for rock guitar? Looking for something basic, but something that sounds like actual drums (not electronic garbage sound) and something that could actually be used for live guitar backing tracks??
As allways: You get what you pay for. Especially for Rock Toontrack EZ Drummer 3 or Superior Drummer 3 have huge, excellent sounding libraries:
https://www.toontrack.com/product/ezdrummer-3/

https://www.toontrack.com/product-categ ... rline/ezx/

https://www.toontrack.com/product-category/midipacks/

https://www.toontrack.com/product/superior-drummer-3/

DunedinDragon
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:46 pm

Re: Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

Post by DunedinDragon » Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:42 pm

DigitalZen wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:08 am
Downloaded a bunch of more files. Some "VST" files, and when I import and listen to them in Ableton, they sound horrible. Like "rock drums" that sound like my old casio keyboard from 1988. How can this be? I'm struggling with how bad this sounds and the fact it's 2022 and this stuff should sound excellent. Are there any actual artists on these boards that can please recommend some specific drum grooves for rock guitar? Looking for something basic, but something that sounds like actual drums (not electronic garbage sound) and something that could actually be used for live guitar backing tracks??
Well, this is the first thing you've said that REALLY helps clarify what you're looking for so we can now give you a little bit better guidance. Some of which you may not like, but it's what it is. If you really want realistic sounding drum tracks you have to be willing to learn how to do it which will take some time to master. and some additional expense for software.

My current band uses backing tracks, one of which is typically drums. But all natural sounding drums that are adaptable to being used for a backing track are generally done with MIDI drum sampling plugins. There are quite a number of these types of plugins, but your version of Ableton doesn't come with any. It's something you would need to buy separately. However all of them do something of the same thing. First they provide a range of different types of drum kits for different types of sounds and they also provide a set of MIDI grooves or beats that can be auditioned and used for different songs. The beats are typically divided into different style variations and parts of the song such as main groove, fills, intro, outro. They're also separated into things like Swing or Straight or 3/4 timing, etc. These plugins also provide other features such as making changes to the size/style of drums like the snare or kick drum or cymbals as well as some form of mixer that allows you to dictate how the different pieces of the drum kit get mixed together for a given song.

In my case I use Kontakt as my plug in manager in Ableton and so my main drum kits are the Abbey Road series of drum plugins with drum kits such as Vintage Drummer, 60's Drummer, 70's, 80's, 90's Drummer and Modern Drummer. Each of these plugins have different styles of drums consistent with those eras and provide some basic grooves. Additionally you can purchase sets of professional grooves you can use with them from companies like GetGoodDrums or GGD. The more sets of grooves you have, the more likely you'll find something to match the song you're playing.

The process for building a drum track is pretty straightforward. You set the BPM and time signature for the song and you create an empty MIDI track in your project and assign the drum plugin to it, you select the drum kit you want to use, and you drop in the appropriate MIDI drum sections into the track so it plays the song at the right speed. Because the drum track is simple MIDI you can make changes to it or just copy and paste sections into the drum track. Generally you want to leave at least one measure at the beginning for a count-in from the drums before the song gets going.

In my case I have different tracks for each backing instrument I'll be adding such as keyboards, organ, strings, horns, etc. These are all MIDI files and I use various Kontakt sample libraries the same as the drums for the different instruments. Each song is it's own project. When I have it where I want it I Freeze and Flatten each track which turns them into .WAV files. I then incorporate these .WAV files into a Session view with each song as a Scene. And when I play that scene it plays all of the backing tracks for that song together. The reason I do this is to minimize the processing on the laptop I use for performing since it doesn't have to load and use all the various drum and sampled instruments. It just plays .WAV files.

SlothFingers54
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:20 pm

Re: Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

Post by SlothFingers54 » Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:26 pm

A little off topic but does anyone know how to change the groove at different points in a track in Abelton 11? I have recorded guitar, keyboards etc and essentially have a single groove playing in the background the entire time. I would like to place fills, or other grooves at specific time points but every time I set a marker and try to define a point where it should change it only works if I manually click on the the different drum groove but does not automatically switch from one to the next. It is probably a simple fix but so far online I have only found videos for how to arm the different drum grooves for live playing and not for generating a variable drum groove track to go along with the recorded instruments.

slow.robot
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:06 am

Re: Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

Post by slow.robot » Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:02 pm

depends how basic you want to be really. if it’s really just stock MIDI grooves you’re looking for, to drive a MIDI kit, I imagine those can be found easily enough. the thing is if you want realistic sounding drums that are customizable (i.e. not prerecorded loops), you’re likely going to need to spend a little time and/or effort. there are several good multisampled kit players out there, but most of them cost a bit (I use/love XLN Audio’s Addictive Drums 2)…then there’s the matter of programming them. if you find MIDI files to use those might be a good starting point, but you’re at the mercy of whoever programmed the groove as far as getting a good feel. luckily I think most such drum plugins come with some great basic grooves to start.

otherwise it’s playing/programming yourself. or getting another MIDI sequencer/playback kit to help drive it. for example, I’ve used the XO programmer to drive Addictive Drums with decent results. a better option for me is using Rayzoon’s Jamstix as a MIDI brain to drive AD. I get more realistic sounding patterns and grooves that way than using any other option (even playing parts manually—I’m no drummer), but it’s a finicky beast and takes quite a bit of practice to get the hang of. and it’s another plugin that costs a bit. well worth it in the long run, but like I said, took some time, money, and effort to get up and running.

DigitalZen
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:22 pm

Re: Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

Post by DigitalZen » Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:09 pm

DunedinDragon wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:42 pm
DigitalZen wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:08 am
Downloaded a bunch of more files. Some "VST" files, and when I import and listen to them in Ableton, they sound horrible. Like "rock drums" that sound like my old casio keyboard from 1988. How can this be? I'm struggling with how bad this sounds and the fact it's 2022 and this stuff should sound excellent. Are there any actual artists on these boards that can please recommend some specific drum grooves for rock guitar? Looking for something basic, but something that sounds like actual drums (not electronic garbage sound) and something that could actually be used for live guitar backing tracks??
Well, this is the first thing you've said that REALLY helps clarify what you're looking for so we can now give you a little bit better guidance. Some of which you may not like, but it's what it is. If you really want realistic sounding drum tracks you have to be willing to learn how to do it which will take some time to master. and some additional expense for software.

My current band uses backing tracks, one of which is typically drums. But all natural sounding drums that are adaptable to being used for a backing track are generally done with MIDI drum sampling plugins. There are quite a number of these types of plugins, but your version of Ableton doesn't come with any. It's something you would need to buy separately. However all of them do something of the same thing. First they provide a range of different types of drum kits for different types of sounds and they also provide a set of MIDI grooves or beats that can be auditioned and used for different songs. The beats are typically divided into different style variations and parts of the song such as main groove, fills, intro, outro. They're also separated into things like Swing or Straight or 3/4 timing, etc. These plugins also provide other features such as making changes to the size/style of drums like the snare or kick drum or cymbals as well as some form of mixer that allows you to dictate how the different pieces of the drum kit get mixed together for a given song.

In my case I use Kontakt as my plug in manager in Ableton and so my main drum kits are the Abbey Road series of drum plugins with drum kits such as Vintage Drummer, 60's Drummer, 70's, 80's, 90's Drummer and Modern Drummer. Each of these plugins have different styles of drums consistent with those eras and provide some basic grooves. Additionally you can purchase sets of professional grooves you can use with them from companies like GetGoodDrums or GGD. The more sets of grooves you have, the more likely you'll find something to match the song you're playing.

The process for building a drum track is pretty straightforward. You set the BPM and time signature for the song and you create an empty MIDI track in your project and assign the drum plugin to it, you select the drum kit you want to use, and you drop in the appropriate MIDI drum sections into the track so it plays the song at the right speed. Because the drum track is simple MIDI you can make changes to it or just copy and paste sections into the drum track. Generally you want to leave at least one measure at the beginning for a count-in from the drums before the song gets going.

In my case I have different tracks for each backing instrument I'll be adding such as keyboards, organ, strings, horns, etc. These are all MIDI files and I use various Kontakt sample libraries the same as the drums for the different instruments. Each song is it's own project. When I have it where I want it I Freeze and Flatten each track which turns them into .WAV files. I then incorporate these .WAV files into a Session view with each song as a Scene. And when I play that scene it plays all of the backing tracks for that song together. The reason I do this is to minimize the processing on the laptop I use for performing since it doesn't have to load and use all the various drum and sampled instruments. It just plays .WAV files.
Thanks @DunedinDragon for the detailed reply. I ended up completely uninstalling Ableton along with nearly my entire hard drive full of garbage MIDI downloads... and moving on. I found Ableton prohibitively and unuseably complex to the point where I didn't even want to play guitar. Building complicated drum tracks from scratch is 100% NOT what I want to be doing with my time as a guitar player.

But your response was great.. :) Thank you

DunedinDragon
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:46 pm

Re: Pre-built drum groove options for solo guitarist ???

Post by DunedinDragon » Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:23 pm

DigitalZen wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:09 pm
DunedinDragon wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:42 pm
DigitalZen wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:08 am
Downloaded a bunch of more files. Some "VST" files, and when I import and listen to them in Ableton, they sound horrible. Like "rock drums" that sound like my old casio keyboard from 1988. How can this be? I'm struggling with how bad this sounds and the fact it's 2022 and this stuff should sound excellent. Are there any actual artists on these boards that can please recommend some specific drum grooves for rock guitar? Looking for something basic, but something that sounds like actual drums (not electronic garbage sound) and something that could actually be used for live guitar backing tracks??
Well, this is the first thing you've said that REALLY helps clarify what you're looking for so we can now give you a little bit better guidance. Some of which you may not like, but it's what it is. If you really want realistic sounding drum tracks you have to be willing to learn how to do it which will take some time to master. and some additional expense for software.

My current band uses backing tracks, one of which is typically drums. But all natural sounding drums that are adaptable to being used for a backing track are generally done with MIDI drum sampling plugins. There are quite a number of these types of plugins, but your version of Ableton doesn't come with any. It's something you would need to buy separately. However all of them do something of the same thing. First they provide a range of different types of drum kits for different types of sounds and they also provide a set of MIDI grooves or beats that can be auditioned and used for different songs. The beats are typically divided into different style variations and parts of the song such as main groove, fills, intro, outro. They're also separated into things like Swing or Straight or 3/4 timing, etc. These plugins also provide other features such as making changes to the size/style of drums like the snare or kick drum or cymbals as well as some form of mixer that allows you to dictate how the different pieces of the drum kit get mixed together for a given song.

In my case I use Kontakt as my plug in manager in Ableton and so my main drum kits are the Abbey Road series of drum plugins with drum kits such as Vintage Drummer, 60's Drummer, 70's, 80's, 90's Drummer and Modern Drummer. Each of these plugins have different styles of drums consistent with those eras and provide some basic grooves. Additionally you can purchase sets of professional grooves you can use with them from companies like GetGoodDrums or GGD. The more sets of grooves you have, the more likely you'll find something to match the song you're playing.

The process for building a drum track is pretty straightforward. You set the BPM and time signature for the song and you create an empty MIDI track in your project and assign the drum plugin to it, you select the drum kit you want to use, and you drop in the appropriate MIDI drum sections into the track so it plays the song at the right speed. Because the drum track is simple MIDI you can make changes to it or just copy and paste sections into the drum track. Generally you want to leave at least one measure at the beginning for a count-in from the drums before the song gets going.

In my case I have different tracks for each backing instrument I'll be adding such as keyboards, organ, strings, horns, etc. These are all MIDI files and I use various Kontakt sample libraries the same as the drums for the different instruments. Each song is it's own project. When I have it where I want it I Freeze and Flatten each track which turns them into .WAV files. I then incorporate these .WAV files into a Session view with each song as a Scene. And when I play that scene it plays all of the backing tracks for that song together. The reason I do this is to minimize the processing on the laptop I use for performing since it doesn't have to load and use all the various drum and sampled instruments. It just plays .WAV files.
Thanks @DunedinDragon for the detailed reply. I ended up completely uninstalling Ableton along with nearly my entire hard drive full of garbage MIDI downloads... and moving on. I found Ableton prohibitively and unuseably complex to the point where I didn't even want to play guitar. Building complicated drum tracks from scratch is 100% NOT what I want to be doing with my time as a guitar player.

But your response was great.. :) Thank you
What may make more sense for you if you want to pursue it is to look at BeatBuddy pedals. They're much simpler and come with a ton of beats that are organized by genre. Each drum "song" consists of several sections such as intro, beat, fill, ending and so forth and you just set the time signature, drop in the pieces you need and you signal the transitions between sections with the footpedal. The good news is all he drum patterns are built from sampled drums so they sound quite realistic.

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