External Clock Sync // very unstable and wonky behaviour

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
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NeonBlackCat
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun May 08, 2022 5:04 pm

External Clock Sync // very unstable and wonky behaviour

Post by NeonBlackCat » Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:25 pm

Hej folks

Elektron dropped a new update "Song Mode" on their boxes, which I'd like to use to orchestrate my external synths with whatever Ableton has to offer in my hybrid-setup, since Ableton also has problems with PC messages in session view (when a clip shall send it).

The problem:
I can't get the Ableton clock to be stable. All the time, every time.
If I start from external, the first notes of any track will be very unstable since the clock is unstable. I send 120 bpm and Ableton registers 94.8 or 132.5 sometimes and it takes roughly 2 bars until it is synced. Absolute nightmare for playing live.

And so far I tried every trick in the book, the options.txt to adjust the clock behaviour, follow track, midi-usb or 5din etc. maybe there is something I haven't found and I'd be grateful if someone performing live with Live and syncing Ableton with an external clock (especially Elektron) could help

Fist solution I found with the help of a friend:
USE BITWIG! not kidding, Bitwig has absolutely no problem syncing from Elektron, getting the clock stable all the time and even sending midi to outboard synths and getting audio in-sync all the time, no problems!

ofc, this isn't really a solution for me as I don't want to switch and yet buy and learn another daw and since I am not the only one with syncing problems and wanting to play Live live, I hope for some help here on how to approach this. Because right now this is really unusable.

two screen captures of the problem:
first one is just starting a midi clip which sends out to a synth and returns audio and you can see the unstable clock and hear the syncing
https://imgur.com/a/h3lrTEx

and secondly a clip of the piano roll with also quick restarts any you can see the transport jump and not behave like it should do
https://imgur.com/a/kvE6NVv

I also wrote to support, but mbe someone already solved this issue :D


cheers,
Cat

solar28
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:43 am
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Re: External Clock Sync // very unstable and wonky behaviour

Post by solar28 » Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:53 pm

Ableton is terrible at syncing to an external midi clock - it's been a problem for years. It always tempo fluctuates, I've had this problem for years and just gave up on the idea of syncing ableton to external clock.

Doesn't matter the clock source, just very unstable.

NeonBlackCat
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun May 08, 2022 5:04 pm

Re: External Clock Sync // very unstable and wonky behaviour

Post by NeonBlackCat » Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:31 pm

I read this at some places

One would have thought that a thing so geared towards playing live and interacting with hardware as well, should be fucking stable by now in it's 11th iteration!

I mean Bitwig does and it's way younger

NeonBlackCat
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun May 08, 2022 5:04 pm

Re: External Clock Sync // very unstable and wonky behaviour

Post by NeonBlackCat » Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:49 pm

Oh and what’s puzzling:

so many ppl are saying “Yeah, don’t use that!”
which is fine I guess as a statement

But this isn’t a hack or workaround, this is a feature Ableton ITSELF is giving its users and it shouldn’t be so complicated at all to use it. I mean, using it at all, since an unstable clock and wonky/weird playback is absolute unacceptable in a live situation!

NeonBlackCat
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun May 08, 2022 5:04 pm

Re: External Clock Sync // very unstable and wonky behaviour

Post by NeonBlackCat » Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:45 pm

I stand by what I said earlier:
if they implement it and Bitwig does it so as well, but without wonky midi-playback, it’s their version which is broken and not implemented well

But changing DAWs isn’t an option atm, so I have to deal with that and somehow make it work. Slight jitter would be ok, ramping up/down and playing catch-up with the playhead is not!

NeonBlackCat
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun May 08, 2022 5:04 pm

Re: External Clock Sync // very unstable and wonky behaviour

Post by NeonBlackCat » Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:35 pm

I found the issue folks, at least in relation to Elektron Boxes and specifically the Syntakt:

it is the START/STOP behaviour where Elektron and Ableton get out of sync!

In the vid below you can see and hear it. In the first half I start/stop with the stop button (single or double doesn’t matter here) and you see how erratic Ableton behaves. In the second half however I PAUSE the play and restart it, numerous times, fast after another, it always is in-sync at the restart.

So there is something in the handling of the STOP & START between Elektron and Ableton that makes them play catch-up. Only in this situation.

Sound is Syntakt and a simple Pigments midi-clip from the session view:
https://imgur.com/a/E1OqHji

cheers,
Cat

grrrz
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:54 pm

Re: External Clock Sync // very unstable and wonky behaviour

Post by grrrz » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:15 pm

haven't tried it but there's a tool in cv tools to sync to an external analog clock. maybe it would work better.
Anyway this sucks but I would probably use live as the sync master (probably even more precise with an analog clock);
if all you need is a play/stop button you can just assign a midi controller.

NeonBlackCat
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun May 08, 2022 5:04 pm

Re: External Clock Sync // very unstable and wonky behaviour

Post by NeonBlackCat » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:50 pm

grrrz wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:15 pm
if all you need is a play/stop button you can just assign a midi controller.
Sadly this is disabled when you put Ableton into EXTERNAL sync mode.
However if someone knows an M4L device that can circumvent this, that be great.

Not even the Push2's transport is accepted during EXT, nor a dedicated Controller like the Komplete Kontrol from NI, nor if you custom assigned MIDI to some buttons on a controller somewhere.

I'll try and take a look into the analog-clock M4L device, thx

grrrz
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:54 pm

Re: External Clock Sync // very unstable and wonky behaviour

Post by grrrz » Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:48 pm

NeonBlackCat wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:50 pm
grrrz wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:15 pm
if all you need is a play/stop button you can just assign a midi controller.
Sadly this is disabled when you put Ableton into EXTERNAL sync mode.
However if someone knows an M4L device that can circumvent this, that be great.
I meant still using live as master; but you just trigger it from a controller if you want a screenless/keyboardless live setup

NeonBlackCat
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun May 08, 2022 5:04 pm

Re: External Clock Sync // very unstable and wonky behaviour

Post by NeonBlackCat » Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:11 pm

yeah that is the key here with an external clock:

for Ableton to NOT be the master! :)

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