BPM and a bit of a mess

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ColinA
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:40 pm

BPM and a bit of a mess

Post by ColinA » Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:49 pm

Hi, I'm new here.., so bear with me..

I have created a song running at 110 BPM which has drum, percussion, bass tracks.. :D

I exported the master.wav file and sent it to my mate who was going to add his keyboards, and then send me back his tracks..

The problem was, when he created a new track and imported my master.wav file, he didn't realise the track was 110 BPM and left his at 120 BPM.. So, he's imported my 110 BPM into his 120 BPM version... :cry:

When he sent me his work, it was totally out of whack with my one that was running at 110 BPM.. :oops:

I have tried everything to get his to work with my primary song..., but I just can't work out how to do it as his MIDI files all seem to be running at 120 BPM and I can't change that.., even when I do change it via a 3rd party tool, its still out of whack..

I'm lost... Any help would be very much appreciated...

RobrechtV
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:32 pm

Re: BPM and a bit of a mess

Post by RobrechtV » Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:56 pm

Hi! Trying to get my head around this -- I think I've had a similar problem once. :)

So I assume your mate recorded those MIDI files, rather than entering them manually on a grid (in which case he would have noticed something was amiss), and he didn't have a metronome running, just your WAV for reference?

And as a result, those MIDI files are recorded in a tempo that doesn't correspond to their grid -- more specifically, a tempo that is slower than their grid. So if you import them into your 110 BPM project, I would expect them to be too long. Correct?

So the problem is that, to correct this misalignment, simply changing the files' BPM won't work. That just scales the grid, along with all the notes in it, still out of wack. Instead, you need to move the MIDI notes closer together separately from their grid to get them to line up properly.

What you could try is import all his MIDI files, clicking "No" to "Import tempo and time signature data into arrangement" (so your own project remains in 110 BPM). Then go into each clip one by one, and select all notes (ctrl+a or cmd+a). Then, grab the marker at the end of the selection (look closely at the screenshot) and move it to the left:

Image

Keep moving the marker to the left until the last note in the selection is where you think it should be in the song:

Image

That should move all notes in that clip proportionally into their correct position in the grid (approximately, of course). Like I said, you'll have to do this for each clip separately.

Hope it works!
Last edited by RobrechtV on Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:50 pm, edited 5 times in total.

RobrechtV
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:32 pm

Re: BPM and a bit of a mess

Post by RobrechtV » Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:06 pm

Just one more thing: you may have to do the same thing with the first note of each clip, using the marker at the beginning of the selection.

Image

So to sum up:
1. make sure that all notes in the clip are selected,
2. use the end marker to move the last note to where you think it should be, and
3. use the start marker to correctly position the first note.

That should correctly align everything in between.

ColinA
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:40 pm

Re: BPM and a bit of a mess

Post by ColinA » Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:55 pm

Hello. and thanks for your help with this one..., its very much appreciated..

I think what you have suggested could well be the thing I'm looking for..., but my skills are not too brilliant...

Within each individual track he has created, there are several sections..., and trying to work out the start and end of the clip is really tricky..., he's done layers of tracks too..., so we have 7 keyboard tracks.... I was trying to find a way I could "squeeze" them all at the same time..., if that makes sense...

You are defiantly right in that ALL his keyboard work is too long when I drag it into my mater project..... The thing that is confusing me is that there seems to be nothing I can do with the individual MIDI tracks... They are running at 120 BPM and that's it..., nothing seems to allow me to "reset" that.. I don't get this problem with AUDIO tracks.., its just the MIDI ones...

What he's tried for me is to bring in my original master files in to his version, which says its running at 120 BPM and that works.., everything is sync'd up, but the grid view on the back of it all is messed up.., nothing is in the right place anymore...

RobrechtV
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:32 pm

Re: BPM and a bit of a mess

Post by RobrechtV » Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:06 pm

Hm. Yes, I see exactly what you mean: with that many tracks, figuring out how much to "squeeze" each one while keeping them all in sync is very tricky. Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to do them all at the same time. I have some ideas, but they're hard to explain and I'd have to experiment a bit...

I mean, if those tracks are something you'd be willing to share, I'd love to tinker with them a little and see how far I can get? Totally understand if you don't like to share a work in progress of course!

ColinA
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:40 pm

Re: BPM and a bit of a mess

Post by ColinA » Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:42 pm

Thats a very kind offer..., if you are sure..?

I'm never going to work this out...

I could zip up what I have and WeTransfer it to you..?

Thanks again....

RobrechtV
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:32 pm

Re: BPM and a bit of a mess

Post by RobrechtV » Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:08 pm

Yeah, absolutely, sounds like a fun puzzle to hone my skills! :) If what I have in mind works, it should be doable. It's something I've encountered before, although not as complicated -- just a MIDI drum track played by our drummer on his digital kit following a reference track, with his DAW set to the wrong tempo.

Of course I can't promise I won't end up as stumped as you are! :D

Did your friend send you a WAV of what it sounds like on his side, for reference? That could give me an idea of the correct timings. In his project, I assume he hears everything correctly lined up, the way he recorded it?

I think this link should open a private message to me if you don't want to share a WeTransfer link in public. I don't think I'll have time to look at it before Sunday, I'm afraid.

RobrechtV
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:32 pm

Re: BPM and a bit of a mess

Post by RobrechtV » Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:22 pm

Hey Colin, got the tracks and gave it a shot! I think they may be okay now, I've sent you a link in a PM. Lovely track by the way!

ColinA
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:40 pm

Re: BPM and a bit of a mess

Post by ColinA » Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:38 pm

Wow!, thanks Rob..

I'll grab it.. I had a feeling you would know what to do... :D

I'll come back to you soon.., and thansk again, very good of you to take the time to look for me..

RobrechtV
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:32 pm

Re: BPM and a bit of a mess

Post by RobrechtV » Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:00 am

Very curious if I did it correctly! Let me know if there's still something wrong. Live didn't give me any warning about compatibility so I assumed we have the same version number.

I'll try to explain what I did in case someone else has the same problem!
  • First, I consolidated all those separate clips into a single long clip for each track, so I could adjust each track in one go from beginning to end.
  • In order to "squeeze" the notes to fit into the grid in the way I illustrated above (select all and drag endpoint), you need two points to squeeze between. Preferably, those points are at the exact same time in each MIDI track, to make it easier to squeeze them all in the same way. So I added a dummy note (C0, velocity 0) at the very beginning of each track, and another one at the end to grab onto, a little ways beyond the last recorded notes, and at the exact same time for each MIDI track.
  • Then, in order to recreate the conditions in which your friend recorded his tracks, I changed the BMP for the whole project to 120 and imported your (110 BPM) reference audio track: that way it lined up correctly with the recorded MIDI. I then tacked a short burst of audio onto the end of that WAV, at the exact same time as the dummy note at the end of the MIDI tracks, and consolidated it with the WAV.
  • Back in the 110 BPM version of the project, where WAV and MIDI were out of sync, this short burst of audio at the end of the WAV then served as a reference point to line up the final dummy note I added in each MIDI track, squeezing the MIDI notes in between neatly into the grid!
I think that's about it. It's been a bit experimental so my explanation may not be entirely correct but it should give an idea of where to start. :)

(I removed those dummy notes afterwards and cut the MIDI tracks into neat separate clips again.)

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