Tired of Poor performance?

Gigatron · Post by **Gigatron** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:44 am

http://www.steinberg.de/Steinberg/Compa ... 31_eu.html

Additional processor optimization means that Cubase SX/SL 3.1 supports not only Mac and PC multiprocessor systems but also the latest AMD and Intel DualCore processors as well as Hyperthreading and DualCore over dual processors. This puts the considerable performance increases these technologies allow fully within the grasp of professional musicians and producers using Cubase SX and SL.

Common already, why the hell does it take soo long for companies to take advantage of new technology? I'm boycoting Ableton until they do some catching up.

beachnote · Post by **beachnote** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:03 am

i will say this.

i can open live v5, and keep adding vst intruments and fx and play some midi clip, and soon after ill start getting audio cracks and terrible performace.

i then do the same with cubase and i can put 2-3 times as many vst instruments and fx (same ones in same order) playing the same exact thing, with no audio cracks and still good performance.

i think thats a pretty terrible thing, considering i like live much better than cubase, but the performance is very bad....maybe they should consider hiring an application performance guru or something...i dont know.

and its no better in v5 than v4....actually seems worse at times...

robtronik · Post by **robtronik** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:08 am

er, you forget that Live is about instant live performance. Cubase is not. There is much more going on under the hood for Live in playback than there is for Cubase.

I understand the desire and need to compare, but the engines for these apps are optimized in different ways for different uses. Go ahead and use Cubase then for your live performances ....

That being said, if you want to reduce CPU overhead, use Repitch or Beats mode for live performance over complex warping mode. I saved an amazing amount of CPU overhead just by changing back to beats mode. I'm stoked.

rob.

beachnote · Post by **beachnote** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:10 am

another thing,

live uses challenge response authentication, and it's scripting protection code that's wrapped around just about every other piece of code in live. that means every time you move a fader, play back music, anything...it is constantly checking your hardware and other protective schemes. the price we pay for this in performance is HUGE.

some of the cracking teams like H2O have mentioned this before on forums and nfo files, actually saying how unbelievable it is that these companies sacrifice so much performance for a protection scheme that will be cracked regardless. they estimate 30%-50% increase in performance if the protection scripting code was not there.

anyway, it is a shame us paying customers suffer because of this...

beachnote · Post by **beachnote** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:16 am

robtronik wrote:er, you forget that Live is about instant live performance. Cubase is not. There is much more going on under the hood for Live in playback than there is for Cubase.

I understand the desire and need to compare, but the engines for these apps are optimized in different ways for different uses. Go ahead and use Cubase then for your live performances ....

That being said, if you want to reduce CPU overhead, use Repitch or Beats mode for live performance over complex warping mode. I saved an amazing amount of CPU overhead just by changing back to beats mode. I'm stoked.

rob.

cubase 3 uses the same extact warping and realtime stuff that ableton live uses, ableton actually sold it to steinberg. and cubase does plenty of shit under the hood. only difference is the UI and the fac tthat live makes it easier to DJ in a live environment, but it is mostly cosmetics and you can do the same in cubase but it was not cosmetically designed for that.

and ableton v5 is also for producing studio work and to be used as a daw, its all over their marketing for it and new features, so it should very well perform like a production daw app.

robtronik wrote:There is much more going on under the hood for Live in playback than there is for Cubase.
rob.

if you actually believe that you got some serious issues, man. i love live too but im not going to live in denial. im going to bitch so they make it better.

clipperer · Post by **clipperer** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:29 am

cubase 3 uses the same extact warping and realtime stuff that ableton live uses, ableton actually sold it to steinberg. and cubase does plenty of shit under the hood.

where did you get thet information^ beachnote?

beachnote · Post by **beachnote** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:31 am

it was from ableton news, and there was a post about it on here a while back. im sure someone will bring it up or link to it eventually.

actually here you go: http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... rg+warping

so yes, cubase does all the realtime warping live does, and i can run 3+ times as many vst's on it....heh, go figure

i still love live, just wish they would spend on manpower on optimizations

Gigatron · Post by **Gigatron** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:43 am

Ableton Live is the only solution designed for each stage of the musical process, from creation to production to performance. In the creative stage, Live is transparent, intuitive and responsive, capturing inspiration and encouraging the flow of musical ideas. During production, Live provides all of the professional tools and studio compatibility required to complete and perfect projects. On stage, Live delivers the expressive control and stability that innumerable performing artists have come to rely on. Live 5 — from inspiration to studio to stage. Create. Produce. Perform.

Ok so I bought Live because I wanted to compose music in it. It seemed like a good product, but I can't believe how bad the performance gets once you get 15+ tracks of midi/audio going with lots of vst plugins. I'll give you an idea of the song I'm trying to finnish up:

Track 1 - Audio <--- jp-8080 <-- Harmony Plugs: RenComp, BlockFishComp
Track 2 - Audio <--- juno 106 <-- Bass Plugs: Super Tap 2, uad rs-1, blockfishComp
Track 3 - Audio <--- JP-8080 <--- Lead Plugs: RenComp
Track 4 - Midi <--- Stylus RMX <--- Percussion Plugs: BlockfishComp

Track 5 - Midi <--- Kontakt 2 <--- Samples No plugins

Track 6 - Midi <--- Lead <--- jp-8080
Track 7 - Midi <--- Bass <--- juno 106
Track 8 to 15 - Midi <--- These are my drums that control Stylus RMX

Return A <--- aud RealVerbPro
Master <--- Nothing at the moment,

Total vst plugins: 10

Peak CPU usage: 40% (25% Avg)
CPU Usage when Idle: 15%

Win XP Home SP2, P4 2.8, 2GB DDR 400, 160GB 7200 rpm sata, PreSonus FirePod
536 Samples - Total delay 24 ms

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but doesn't this seem like a pretty simple setup? Maybe it's just my crappy hardware then? I'll fin out next week when I try out Cubase SX3.

Gigatron · Post by **Gigatron** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:51 am

robtronik wrote:er, you forget that Live is about instant live performance. Cubase is not. There is much more going on under the hood for Live in playback than there is for Cubase.

I understand the desire and need to compare, but the engines for these apps are optimized in different ways for different uses. Go ahead and use Cubase then for your live performances ....

That being said, if you want to reduce CPU overhead, use Repitch or Beats mode for live performance over complex warping mode. I saved an amazing amount of CPU overhead just by changing back to beats mode. I'm stoked.

rob.

You see, I bought this for composition in my studio, not for live work. Now from what the box says and the web site says:

Ableton Live is the only solution designed for each stage of the musical process, from creation to production to performance.

Well, I guess I was lied to then, because I get poor performance at the creation and production stages. I guess I need to shell out another $500 for Cubase for that part then?

bensuthers · Post by **bensuthers** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:55 am

yeah, but cubase puts a hell of a lot of overhead on MY PROCESSOR (brain).

i certainly rather make the computer work harder than my brain.

Cubase ALSO knows what you're going to play before you play it.

Live doesn't.

majestic · Post by **majestic** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:01 am

beachnote wrote:cubase 3 uses the same extact warping and realtime stuff that ableton live uses, ableton actually sold it to steinberg

clipperer wrote:where did you get thet information^ beachnote?

beachnote wrote:actually here you go: http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... rg+warping

That was me that started that thread a year ago. I wasn't saying that Ableton had licensed it's technology to Steinberg. I was just pointing out that some people on KVR were speculating that Ableton had done that. This was before SX3 was released.

As it turns out, it looks like they didn't license it, or else we would've heard about it from the Abes or elsewhere (i.e. "New flash! Steinberg agrees to pay buckets of cash to use Ableton timestretch technology because it can't write it's own!" etc.). Additionally, Ableton would be swimming in money right now. I think you can assume Steinberg wrote it's timestretch code itself.

beachnote · Post by **beachnote** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:04 am

well i didnt want to make this a live vs cubase thread. i just for once want to see something on an update patch that says they improved performance significantly on live.

because if you do some research/searching, you'll see how evasive ableton is on performance issues and how its almost taboo to talk about it on these forums....not very reassuring...

beachnote · Post by **beachnote** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:07 am

majestic wrote:I think you can assume Steinberg wrote it's timestretch code itself.

ah thats cool, maj, well they did a pretty damn good job then...

robtronik · Post by **robtronik** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:19 am

beachnote wrote:well i didnt want to make this a live vs cubase thread. i just for once want to see something on an update patch that says they improved performance significantly on live.

because if you do some research/searching, you'll see how evasive ableton is on performance issues and how its almost taboo to talk about it on these forums....not very reassuring...

I disagree. They are forthcoming about what they can do and cannot do from what I have read on these forum for the last couple of years.

It is also called Live. So its primary usage is for Live performance. It is really only since live 4 that you could consider this a comparable production studio.

Its probably a good thing to keep pushing the Ableton's to get better performance.. they need to hear that and we all benefit from their continued optimization. No one would argue with that.

rob.

Gigatron · Post by **Gigatron** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:45 am

robtronik wrote:
beachnote wrote:well i didnt want to make this a live vs cubase thread. i just for once want to see something on an update patch that says they improved performance significantly on live.

because if you do some research/searching, you'll see how evasive ableton is on performance issues and how its almost taboo to talk about it on these forums....not very reassuring...
I disagree. They are forthcoming about what they can do and cannot do from what I have read on these forum for the last couple of years.

It is also called Live. So its primary usage is for Live performance. It is really only since live 4 that you could consider this a comparable production studio.

Its probably a good thing to keep pushing the Ableton's to get better performance.. they need to hear that and we all benefit from their continued optimization. No one would argue with that.

rob.

I disagree Rob, did you even read my post? Guess not, I'll quate again directly from Abletion:

Ableton Live is the only solution designed for each stage of the musical process, from creation to production to performance. In the creative stage, Live is transparent, intuitive and responsive, capturing inspiration and encouraging the flow of musical ideas. During production, Live provides all of the professional tools and studio compatibility required to complete and perfect projects. On stage, Live delivers the expressive control and stability that innumerable performing artists have come to rely on. Live 5 — from inspiration to studio to stage. Create. Produce. Perform.

hmmm... from what I read here I get the impression it's not just for Live work, but for the entire musical process. They may be forthcomming on the forums, but they sure are not when it comes to marketing their product correctly.