Tired of Poor performance?

Aural Chaos · Post by **Aural Chaos** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:34 pm

That quote about the estimated performance hit was from whatever cracking group ABOUT CUBASE SX3 AND ITS DONGLE,not about Live's challenge/response copy protection. It's debatable if it is even a valid statement when taken in context,but it is completely irrelevant to Live.

SonnyBonnier wrote:
beachnote wrote:another thing,

live uses challenge response authentication, and it's scripting protection code that's wrapped around just about every other piece of code in live. that means every time you move a fader, play back music, anything...it is constantly checking your hardware and other protective schemes. the price we pay for this in performance is HUGE.

some of the cracking teams like H2O have mentioned this before on forums and nfo files, actually saying how unbelievable it is that these companies sacrifice so much performance for a protection scheme that will be cracked regardless. they estimate 30%-50% increase in performance if the protection scripting code was not there.

anyway, it is a shame us paying customers suffer because of this...

Yep... it´s true. We loose something like 20%-30% in performance because of this copyprotection.

And as everyone knows, until Microsoft releases Longhorn, every program there is will be cracked anyway. Probably after this point also.

beachnote · Post by **beachnote** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:38 pm

actually.....

they said it about live v4 on the forums before they said it in the recent cubase 3 nfo file. and they said it in a forum which i wont disclose here. and on top of that its blantently obvious to anyone who programs that in fact you do suffer for copyright protection. and being a senior software engineer for a high security software development company, i can assure it is very much the truth: performance is a high price we pay because of copyright protection schemes.

and i never said that a dongle is any better, its the same thing. they both constantly check for violation routines, and they both take performance hits.

you want proof? go download any live v4 cracked version from gnutella and run it. keep moving faders and pan controls and you'll see the little mouse flashing a bit wierd...thats the copyright protection in action for you. keep doing it and after a whilke the cracked version will give you a copyright protection violation and youll have to reformat your system drive (or do something else which i wont share here).

or, run regmon or filemon and move faders and pan controls, and ask yourself why the fuk is live checing hundreds of reg keys and files just to move a fuckin fader.

every single action live performs has a copyright protection sheme put into it, its not just when you unlock the thing, so get your head out of your ass. and so do apps that use dongles. period.

one last thing, if we were them we'd be doing the same exact shit. its the only protection they have, and if losing a chunk of performance will help them make revenue and stay in business, its what they got to do....but they should seriously spend some manhours working on the problem, cause in live the performance is not up to par with cubase, logic, and others. just test it yourself, man. putting together a test environment and seeing the results is basic shit.

but fuk, i still use live, so be it. and i'm glad im starting some shit, maybe they'll fix something.

robtronik · Post by **robtronik** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:58 pm

nice attitude.

anyway, I think that those who want to seperate the compositional capability from its live playback/performance capabilities really miss the genius of the application.

Everything has a trade off, and Live certainly has those (as do other applications).... It would be a big mistake to seperate the two functions....

If you like the compositional abilities of Cubase, then go use it. No one is forcing anyone to use Live. That being said, all of us would love more optimization (who WOULDN'T?)...

.02,

rob.

StompyJ · Post by **StompyJ** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:13 pm

Don't get me wrong, I think that Live is a great DAW as well. But if you try and use Live like you would Cubase, you may be disappointed, imo its important to use Live like Live

BTW, I know this is how you feel too, but I don't want people to think I dont' like Live as a DAW

nebulae wrote:Gotto chime in:

1. I agree with Stompy with one clarification...I believe that Live IS a very good DAW, even if you aren't using it for performances. The workflow and way things get done in the application is just excellent user interface design. I find that regardless of the CPU issues, you do have to take into account how easy and inspiring a DAW is to work with. Take Tracktion, for instance...it's hailed to be a great DAW. But I just never got a good feel for it, and as a result, I never got any work done. As much as I like Cubase, when I work with Live, and I literally don't have to deal with 10-15 windows open at a time, I get freaked out with all the screen clutter when I go back to SX.

2. Regarding copy protection, I think companies need to have some hurdles so that it's not a free-for-all. However, once that's in place, the company should focus on performance. Challenge-Response schemes are exactly this - a good hurdle to keep software away from anyone wanting to use it for free, but then doesn't affect performance at all. Cakewalk has the most trusting protection - it's still just a serial number...and they have a very loyal user base. With SX3, the fact that the dongle hurts performance is REALLY outrageous. Everyone knows that all software protection is breakable. Why hurt your user base with your copy protection? Doesn't make sense at all. And on that note, I know several people who bought SX and then used the crack so they wouldn't risk breaking their dongle. How could a company let that happen?...have people buy their software and then rely on a crack to get better performance and use the software without worrying that it will stop working if the dongle fails or breaks???

3. Having said all that, I do with the Abes would just respond to the CPU issue - even acknowledge it. How about a nice, "We know, and we're working on it..." Because even when you're done optimizing, you can always do even more.

StompyJ · Post by **StompyJ** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:13 pm

EXACTLY!

robtronik wrote:nice attitude.

anyway, I think that those who want to seperate the compositional capability from its live playback/performance capabilities really miss the genius of the application.

Everything has a trade off, and Live certainly has those (as do other applications).... It would be a big mistake to seperate the two functions....

If you like the compositional abilities of Cubase, then go use it. No one is forcing anyone to use Live. That being said, all of us would love more optimization (who WOULDN'T?)...

.02,

rob.

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:24 pm

you guys know that Live5 was on bittorrent like a day after we were able to buy it here online.

fruityloops gets cracked like a bitch and they make sales because people want access to their forums

nebulae · Post by **nebulae** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:25 pm

StompyJ wrote:Don't get me wrong, I think that Live is a great DAW as well. But if you try and use Live like you would Cubase, you may be disappointed, imo its important to use Live like Live

BTW, I know this is how you feel too, but I don't want people to think I dont' like Live as a DAW

I think we're basically on the same page. My only clarification would be that I often use Live like I used Cubase. I missa few features, like the sample editor, but overall, I do just fine. My last track on Live was at 37 tracks of 24-bit audio, with healthy use of plugins, VSTis and lots and lots of renders

Never even hit 50% cpu, so I'll take better workflow over super-optimized CPU usage any day. Then again, like you said, I'd take both

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:27 pm

nebulae wrote:
StompyJ wrote:Don't get me wrong, I think that Live is a great DAW as well. But if you try and use Live like you would Cubase, you may be disappointed, imo its important to use Live like Live

BTW, I know this is how you feel too, but I don't want people to think I dont' like Live as a DAW
I think we're basically on the same page. My only clarification would be that I often use Live like I used Cubase. I missa few features, like the sample editor, but overall, I do just fine. My last track on Live was at 37 tracks of 24-bit audio, with healthy use of plugins, VSTis and lots and lots of renders

Never even hit 50% cpu, so I'll take better workflow over super-optimized CPU usage any day. Then again, like you said, I'd take both

a better workflow = a better route. but a better route live5 is not about, but turning out to be a bit of trash...every track seems to CRASH.

braj · Post by **braj** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:31 pm

I haven't has 5.0.1 crash on me yet :shrug:

nebulae · Post by **nebulae** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:33 pm

sweetjesus wrote: a better workflow = a better route. but a better route live5 is not about, but turning out to be a bit of trash...every track seems to CRASH.

Sorry to hear that bro. I'm sure it doesn't help you to hear from me that L5 hasn't crashed on me once as of yet.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:34 pm

Nor have I seen Live 5 crash (except early during the beta testing phase).

Nor have I seen the CPU meter spike at all, even though I've been putting together bigger tracks in version 5 than I ever managed in v4.

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:42 pm

ok that was a stupid rhyme, but seriously i have been getting some friggin weirdo problems. personally i'm ahead of myself in venting my frustration, the last week i have just experienced some amazingly horrible crashes and problems, but i have not had a chance to mention them to ableton yet.

i mean things like the waveform only showing silence at certain levels of zoom the audio dropping out halfway through tracks.. erm.. freezing.. also glitching to the buggery, sounds like i've got Buffer Override on my master channel at times.

this is all on a project with 2 tracks, 8 clips (mp3 decoded to WAV) one filter one each channel and one send channel with a delay and filter, on a P4 Desktop CPU notebook, with 1GB of RAM.

i've finetuned my system with O&O Defrag and registry defragmentation and everything else purrrrs like a kitten except for L5...

Emissary · Post by **Emissary** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:46 pm

i got some weird problems last night,

i was making a cd for a girl i am falling in love with, and the dam render had pops every so often, but i had no time left and had to get it to her before she left. So she now has a poopy snap crackle and pop cd. Grrrrr

braj · Post by **braj** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:48 pm

I'm not using MP3s so maybe that's the problem. They have to be decoded in real time, right? Maybe that along with time stretching is a bear.

BTW, the beat detection system doesn't work well with Grateful Dead tunes like Dark Start

nebulae · Post by **nebulae** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:50 pm

Emissary wrote:i got some weird problems last night,

i was making a cd for a girl i am falling in love with, and the dam render had pops every so often, but i had no time left and had to get it to her before she left. So she now has a poopy snap crackle and pop cd. Grrrrr

So let me get this straight...on this thread, we wend from complaining to Abes about CPU issues, to how cracked software is better because it removes copy protection, to how Live5 is responsible for the destruction of your love life??

I don't think Ableton can help you any more. This is a job for Henke, or as most of us know him as...Dr. Love.