Access Virus TI anyone?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
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Post by Tarekith » Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:39 pm

[quote="montrealbreaks"]
OK. You're wrong. YOU "understand" that it only needs USB 1, good for you. You don't understand why someone would need a better spec'd machine.

>>>I do understand why people would want this, I'm just Access has never said it would be capable of this. They have already admitted that at this point in time, doing USB2 and allowing for up to 16 streams of audio woudl have raised the price too high.<<

USB 1, as admitted by the Customer Support people at Access, is insuffecient for a modern Audio interface

>>>Yes, but they don't claim it's a multichannel audio interface. This is like me complaining that my honda civic doesn't come stock with 300HP. Yes it can be done, but you can't get mad and slag a company for not giving YOU what YOU want in all cases. <<<

NOW DO YOU GET IT?!?!?! Without USB 2 or Firewire, you can't output multiple audio signals from LIVE, and that sucks for live improvisational performance.

>>>It's a synth with some audio card capabilities, no one ever has made the claim that it's the be all and end solution for multi-channel audio interfacing. <<<

Ok, admittedly the Virus is a damn fine synth, but if it's no more useful than a Virus C (which is already far more synth than most people will ever need) then there's no need to buy the TI other than to "keep up with the jonses".

>>>It's a synth that eliminates a lot of cable clutter by letting you interface with your host sequencer via one USB cable. It also has basic audio interfacing for those people who just need a way to input audio/midi and monitor the master out of their DAW at the same time. Certainly it's not going to fit everyone's needs in all situations. <<<
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Post by Tarekith » Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:29 pm

I used to own a Virus KC, and the TI has MANY features that it didn't have.

- Much better sounding D/A's.
- Wavetables
- Hypersaw osc
- user creatable arps.
- More Poly, lots more.
- You can use Delay and reverb at the same time on all 16 parts.
- Much better inputs.
- The new LCD is WAYYYY better than the old 2 line jobby.
- Twice as much ROM and RAM for your presets.
- Searchable presets
- More comprehensive Mod Matrix

Certainly if these aren't important to you, then the C will do just fine. But the same could be said about the move from the A series to B, and from B to C. Just depends on what's important to you, and how much you want to pay for it.
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Meh...

Post by gaspode » Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:46 pm

I cancelled my order for the TI Polar two weeks ago. Was told that I'd be put at the end of the line if I wanted to order it again. At this point I really don't care as I sold my Virus C over a year ago so that I could get the Virus TI early this year. With so many set backs and false promises I figure I can wait, though the longer I have gone without the Virus C, the less I really care for the TI as the specs seem somewhat less than what I had been hoping for and I've been able to get much of the Virus character out of other synths if I tweak them just right.

Don't get me wrong, I still miss the Virus from time to time, but I'm starting to feel like I've moved on. Oh well... I certainly won't be getting my Virus C back... :(

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Post by montrealbreaks » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:24 pm

Tarekith wrote:
>>>It's a synth with some audio card capabilities, no one ever has made the claim that it's the be all and end solution for multi-channel audio interfacing. <<<
...
Ummm.

The problem is that you STILL won't be able to use a DIFFERENT audio interface with Ableton Live because Live supports only one card.

So, if you buy and use a TI with Live, you CANNOT use a different audio card, which forces you to use it as your only audio card. And, as an audio card with only 1 output, it sucks for using with Ableton Live.

The people at Access said it wouldn't work with ASIO4ALL either, so you can't even do a software workaround!!!

So, either Live has to implement multiple audio card support (don't count on it) or Access has to upgrade to USB 2 or Firewire (don't count on it either).

I admit that while you are right, that Access never promised your TI would work sound card wonders for you; but they also don't advertise the fact that using it with Live will render your MOTU 828 Mk II (or whatever you use for a high spec audio card) useless...

And around 90% of people on this forum use live, and a significant number of them (almost all) require an audio card with a seperate cueing channel, right?

I'm just trying to warn people who use Live not to make a $2,500 mistake. In it's current configuration, as admitted by the people at access.de, the Virus TI will severely limit your audio routing capabilities - and for me and many people on this board that's a show-stopper.

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Post by gaspode » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:29 pm

montrealbreaks wrote:
So, while Access never promised your TI would work wonders for you, they also don't advertise the fact that it will render your MOTU 828 Mk II (or whatever you use for a high spec audio card) useless if you use ableton Live -

Which is what 99% of people on this forum are interested in, no?

I'm just trying to warn people who use Live not to make a $2,500 mistake.
I had understood that the VSTi part was seperate from the audio IN/OUT part... so while it doesn't make the MOTU 828 Mk II useless, I think it is actually making it entirely necessary if you require cue outs...

Like you, I was hoping for the TI to be a universal synth/stereo input/2 stereo output... It'd reduce the hassle of moving around so much gear. Instead it is just a nice synth and if you need multiple outputs you need to carry all that extra gear around with you anyways.

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Post by icedsushi » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:32 pm

Wow, this is interesting. Something I didn't think about. Yeah you can only select one audio interface in Live. Hmmm.....

Do you know this for a fact or are you just deducting this from your own reasoning? Maybe the TI shows up on the inputs of a track instead of an audio driver in prefs. Even if it does show as an audio driver, it should work in OSX Tiger just fine I would think. Tiger now supports multiple simultaneous audio drivers.

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Post by montrealbreaks » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:38 pm

icedsushi wrote:Wow, this is interesting. Something I didn't think about. Yeah you can only select one audio interface in Live. Hmmm.....

Do you know this for a fact or are you just deducting this from your own reasoning? Maybe the TI shows up on the inputs of a track instead of an audio driver in prefs. Even if it does show as an audio driver, it should work in OSX Tiger just fine I would think. Tiger now supports multiple simultaneous audio drivers.
I inferred and reasoned that it appeared as an audio device, but when I contacted Access and explained my concerns, they didn't tell me "hey wait buddy, it's OK this thing doesn't act like an audio device!!!" The fact that they didn't clarify this leaves me with a sinking suspicion that I'm right... I'll wait until it's on the market to see for myself before I go pre-ordering one, that's for certain! Better not hold my breath...

That said, this could be a ray of hope - if it doesn't appear as an audio device but appears to Live as some other sort of interface... If it actually receives audio a VST effect would, then this problem is somewhat mitigated. You might be able to get away with an Echo Indigo or your onboard audio.

Plus, if it appears as an audio device (as I suspect) then TIGER would work fine... Which is a very solid arguement for a Mac. Hmmmm. I guess the only people screwed would be PC users

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Post by gaspode » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:42 pm

icedsushi wrote:Wow, this is interesting. Something I didn't think about. Yeah you can only select one audio interface in Live. Hmmm.....

Do you know this for a fact or are you just deducting this from your own reasoning? Maybe the TI shows up on the inputs...should work in OSX Tiger just fine I would think. Tiger now supports multiple simultaneous audio drivers.
Barring some major change to the Virus TI line, it will only support one stereo out. Given that it is supplying stereo in, stereo out and also handling all midi in/out as well as the audio from the Virus TI (so you can mix it in your DAW) it is definitely squeezing every last ounce out of the USB 1.1 Spec. If you look at most USB 1.0/1.1 Audio devices the most that they can handle is 8 channels of audio in, out or combination of directions as long as you come up with 8, and this is generally at 44.1khz.

I believe that the Virus supports up to 96khz, which is effectively double the bandwidth. I would imagine that running the virus at 96khz mode for USB would further limit your I/O options, though again, they may be doing something very fancy. However, there is still a mathematical limit of how much data they can transfer over USB 1.1 and still maintain a high enough signal quality to effectively be able to say you run at 44.1khz or 96khz or whatever it is that you choose to output.

As far as I know, a lot of the USB devices that output 8 channels over USB 1.1 use data frames, and sometimes they will reduce quality on different channels, so while technically you are outputting at 44.1khz, the effective bit rate or audio sampling may be downsampled before going out the USB port and then upsampled again to maintain the illusion of 44.1khz. Also keep in mind that all this downsampling and upsampling requires processing time, which in turns increases latency and processor overhead that would simply be unnecessary on a USB 2.0 implementation.

This doesn't mean that the Virus TI isn't an interesting or unique product, just that technically they won't be able to delivery on everybody's hopes and dreams. I think in a lot of cases for people they will find that it is just a more powerful Virus C with a few extra tricks and effects and is not the all in one solution that many people were hoping for.

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Post by Tarekith » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:55 pm

The problem is that you STILL won't be able to use a DIFFERENT audio interface with Ableton Live because Live supports only one card.

>>>If you mean you can't use more than one ASIO card with the DAW at once, this is a limitation of the ASIO protocol, not Access's fault. However, you can use the TI connected to the Virus Control plug in in Live, and use your main soundcard at the same time. Obviously you can't route audio out of both at once, but you will be able to transmit audio from the TI synth engine to Live and use your other soundcard at the same time. Like I said, it's not Access's fault this is a limitation of ALL Asio soundcards. <<<

The people at Access said it wouldn't work with ASIO4ALL either, so you can't even do a software workaround!!!


>>>It will work with ASIO4ALL if that's your primary soundcard driver. ASIO4ALL is nothing more than a WDM wrapper, it doesn't really transfer using strictly the ASIO protocol, it's just a well written wrapper that apps SEE as an ASIO driver. That's why you can use more than one soundcard with ASIO4ALL, WDM isn't limited to one audio interface like ASIO is.<<<


I admit that while you are right, that Access never promised your TI would work sound card wonders for you; but they also don't advertise the fact that using it with Live will render your MOTU 828 Mk II (or whatever you use for a high spec audio card) useless...


>>>Because that's just not true at all. The reason that this is taking so long to get released, is because Access is the first company to pull this off, routing audio from a synth directly to a VSTi plug in (without interfering with the ASIO drivers of your main card at all), while at the same time letting you use your primary audiocard for monitoring, recording etc. They've created their own transfer protocol to pull it off, there's no universal standard in place for this sort of thing. <<<


And around 90% of people on this forum use live, and a significant number of them (almost all) require an audio card with a seperate cueing channel, right?

>>>And they can continue to use those audio cards with the TI connected, unless you want to route audio from the DAW through the TI physical outs. <<<

I'm just trying to warn people who use Live not to make a $2,500 mistake. In it's current configuration, as admitted by the people at access.de, the Virus TI will severely limit your audio routing capabilities.

>>>Let me try and break this down for you a bit, because I think you're not understanding what's happening. When you connect the TI to your PC (or Mac, whatever) via USB you can use it in one of two ways:

- With your current audio card and current ASIO drivers. In this case you don't lose any audio or midi functionality you previously had, everything works the same. However, the internal synth and midi output from the Virus itself are sent direct to the Virus Control VSTi Plug In. The hardware synth is still generating all the synth sounds, it's just digitally routed directly to the VSTi. Monitoring and cueing in this case is still handled by your primary soundcard just as it was before. It's really no different than connecting the TI to your main soundcard via SPDIF, except Access is just bypassing the main soundcard and going directly to the plug in.

- Using the Virus TI synth as an audio interface INSTEAD of your primary audio interface. In this case, the synth is still communicating directly with the VSTi, but you can also use the inputs and outputs (audio and midi) on the back of the synth to connect to your monitors, headphones, and other midi gear etc. In this scenario, yes you are CURRENTLY limited to stereo audio in and out. Instead of choosing your primary soundcard drivers in Live's Preferences, you can choose the Virus ASIO drivers instead. This mode is for those people who don't want to bring a seperate multichannel audio interface with them, and only need a stereo out and stereo in, basic stuff.

So using the TI with Live does not neccesarily mean you can ONLY use stereo in's and outs, you can still use your main soundcard and it's drivers, and have the TI connected via USB functioning as normal. Does that make bettter sense?

It doesn't replace the 828mkII unless you want it too, you can use both quite happily together with no interference from one to the other.
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Post by montrealbreaks » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:09 pm

OK, gotcha.

If it transmits audio not using ASIO, then agreed it won't make your sound card useless.

My bad... I don't admit mistakes often, so touché!

That said, it's still a little disappointing in it's delayed release, as well as it's inability to be a "one piece solution". They could have really had something here, but as is, it's just a synth with a few more bells n' whistles in my opinion.

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Post by gaspode » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:12 pm

montrealbreaks wrote:That said, it's still a little disappointing in it's delayed release, as well as it's inability to be a "one piece solution". They could have really had something here, but as is, it's just a synth with a few more bells n' whistles in my opinion.
Yeah, kind of the swiss army synth in a way. It does a little bit of everything, but I imagine that the only thing that it will clearly do well is be a VA synth. The toothpick, nail clippers and tweezers will probably still be vestigial for most users.

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Post by Tarekith » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:18 pm

No probs man, I think a lot of people just don't understand what the TI is really doing, you're not the first person I've seen make the wrong assumption. I'd like it to do 16 channels of hi res audio as well, but they just couldn't do it realistically (ie affordably) yet. I imagine if the TI's do well (??? at this point), then hopefully by the time the TI2 is due out, USB or firewire options will be cheaper. Gotta walk before you can crawl though I guess.

FWIW, I totally agree that the delayed released is a real bummer. I too had three friends who had them on pre-order and they've all cancelled. Either way, there should be some more news about this VERY soon. :)
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Post by AdamJay » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:22 pm

thank Jobs for aggregate devices.
:)

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Post by icedsushi » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:37 pm

From a business standpoint, I'm starting to wonder....could there be some money problems at Access? Noone knows for sure what's going on I suppose. Also, I know things are different over there in Europe when it comes to releasing new products.

Sometimes companies in Europe will go for a 2-3 month gap barely selling anything until the next year's model is finished and released. Maybe has something to do with holidays over there too which are longer than in the states.

They haven't had much of a product line for 10 months now. They'd have to be selling alot of Virus Classics and Powercores to cover the fixed costs associated with running a business based on Virus C sales. And who would be gobbling them up when they know the TI's will be coming out? :?

A year of full time development and fixed costs with next-to-nothing revenue costs mucho bucks! The money needs to come from a huge savings or more and more needs to be borrowed with each passing day. Worse case scenario, the credit limits are reached and development isn't finished. Who knows...

Would have been a much much better business decision for them if they continued to sell Virus C's until the TI ships. They shouldn't have made that announcement way back in November unless the things were shipping that day. Now the cat's outta the bag and noone would want a C anyway even if they continued to make them in the meantime.

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Post by montrealbreaks » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:22 pm

icedsushi wrote:From a business standpoint, I'm starting to wonder....could there be some money problems at Access?
...

They shouldn't have made that announcement way back in November unless the things were shipping that day. Now the cat's outta the bag and noone would want a C anyway even if they continued to make them in the meantime.
Classic case of the Dilbert management style - Marketing promises shit that the designers dream up, but leave the engineers and programmers holding the dust when they announce vapour ware to the public.

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