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montrealbreaks
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Post by montrealbreaks » Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:46 pm

jackmazzotti wrote:#2 the college comment is a BROAD generalization. I firmly believe that the majority of leftist veiws held by folks nowadays are taught in college. If you haven't attended college than this might not be apparent to you because you wouldn't have been taught them. If you are still in it then you are still in the indoctrinization process chances are. Which isn't your fault. Kids are naive and I think a lot of proffessors capitilze on that and use their position to infuence people towards the left.
I gotta agree on this one point. I spent 7 years in University, and I know a very large number of current and former students. Montreal is a University town, and for North America we have the largest student population per capita outside of Boston.

I see feminism, socialism, male villification, political correctness and other doctrines generally associated with the "left" passed around as if they were mathematic axioms, rather than opinions. Plus, to express a differing opinion one is automatically labelled as sexist, racist, homophobic, intolerant, blah blah blah.

People who have never been to University are generally unaware of the indoctrination that is taking place in our post secondary education system here in North America. People who have been to University, are generally indoctrinated... So there's not many people left to criticise with any authority. Most Undergraduate degree programs no longer teach critical thinking, there's just too many students. It's economic reality that has turned Undergraduate programs into "Bachelors' Sausage Grinders" pushing out students in a machine like manner.

What this student to teacher ratio results in is professors with tenure, rather than allowing their students to question their doctrine (too much work to grade effectively), have to grade students on how well they can internalize the questions the professors themselves asked in the 60's and 70's. The administrations (drawn from the same pool of academics as the faculty) are complicit.

Now, true there are also "right wing" schools - Religious colleges, Business schools, and some agricultural colleges too... Though they are in the extreme minority.

What this results in is that there is no longer a university experience for undergrads that allows them to think what they want, grading them on the basis of their rationality, but rather than on their dogmatism.
The Applied Sciences are less infected on the part of the faculty, though the student bodies have generally absorbed this attitude.

As a straight caucasian male, I actually suffered discrimination in my Alma Mater... Believe it. This is what opened my eyes to the cult like brainwashing going on around me.

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computo
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Post by computo » Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:55 pm

jackmazzotti wrote:#3 I seem Michael Moore as a con artist. I also think he is a communist. I think he is a worthless person. How can anyone use the Katrina disaster or 911 for political gain. It is shameless. This goes for Howard Dean and the Dems in general (not to exclude wimpy milk toast republicans) as well.

#4 maybe I don't understand all of the intricate complexities of communisim but I understand that over 100 million people died from Stalin and Mao. I met a B.U. proffessor who thought communism could still work. I told him "they probably didn't kill enough people for it to work".
Wow. You are a grade a whack-O. Communism? hahaha. That is just priceless, and dates you by the way.

at least you think you're an expert on something. I love to hear about army shlubs trying to school University professors... Makes me glad I didnt spend anytime in the military... Do they teach all of you that you're smarter than the college educated? that must take some of the sting off.

computo
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Post by computo » Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:01 pm

noisetonepause wrote:In contemporary US political discourse it's apparently just an insult of very broad definition, not unlike what 'communist' is/used to be... at least that's my impression.

There was an article in the Economist (very Liberal!) during the last US Presidential campaign commenting on some of Bush's speeches called "There's a word for that... and we want it back!" about this very issue.
Liberal is about as offensive as the term "anti-semite" has become...i.e. not at all.

They've tried to use it against people for the wrong reason, a few too many times.

The words mean nothing, and are almost rally cries for those of us who believe that the US should have social programs, or criticize the actions of the state of Israel. We have come to accept these terms, as much as the opposition seems to think they are hurtful.

montrealbreaks
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Post by montrealbreaks » Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:01 pm

computo wrote:Wow. You are a grade a whack-O. Communism? hahaha. That is just priceless, and dates you by the way.

at least you think you're an expert on something. I love to hear about army shlubs trying to school University professors... Makes me glad I didnt spend anytime in the military... Do they teach all of you that you're smarter than the college educated? that must take some of the sting off.
Computo, you would be surprised at the wisdom and life experience that soldiers often have when compared to cloistered academics.

Particularly when it is the blood of soldiers protecting academic freedoms.

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noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:07 pm

montrealbreaks wrote:Computo, you would be surprised at the wisdom and life experience that soldiers often have when compared to cloistered academics.

Particularly when it is the blood of soldiers protecting academic freedoms.
And you talk about brainwashing!?

With your seven years in college I take it you no what 'non sequiteur' means...

-Paws

montrealbreaks
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Post by montrealbreaks » Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:45 pm

noisetonepause wrote:
montrealbreaks wrote:Computo, you would be surprised at the wisdom and life experience that soldiers often have when compared to cloistered academics.

Particularly when it is the blood of soldiers protecting academic freedoms.
And you talk about brainwashing!?

With your seven years in college I take it you no what 'non sequiteur' means...

-Paws
If you mean the definition
wikipedia wrote: Non sequitur (absurdism), a comment which is humorously absurd or has no relation to the comment it follows
You're right - the second point is irrelevant to the first arguement. That said, both points are valid independantly of each other.

BUT, if you mean by the definition
wikipedia wrote: Non sequitur (logic), a logical fallacy
You are way off base. That soldiers protect academic freedom is NOT a logical fallacy at all - it is a function of the transitive property when liberal democratic governments are concerned...

1. Soldiers serve the state.
2. The state's purpose is to serve the people and protect the freedom of speech.
3. The state has the power to enforce it's will as it has soldiers.
4. Free speech exists as evidenced in this forum

Therefore, as free speech exists that shows the state adheres to it's purpose
Therefore soldiers, as agents of the state, protect freedom of speech.

Simple. If you diagree with premise 2, and you say so on this forum, you automatically invalidate your own objection by proving that you have the right to disagree.
Last edited by montrealbreaks on Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sqook
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Post by sqook » Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:03 pm

montrealbreaks wrote:1. Soldiers serve the state.
2. The state's purpose is to serve the people and protect the freedom of speech.
3. The state has the power to enforce it's will as it has soldiers.
Therefore, if free speech exists that shows the state adheres to it's purpose
Therefore soldiers, as agents of the state, protect freedom of speech.
Likewise:
1. Socrates was a man.
2. All men are mortal.
3. Therefore, all men are Socrates

montrealbreaks
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Post by montrealbreaks » Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:07 pm

sqook wrote:
montrealbreaks wrote: 1. Soldiers serve the state.
2. The state's purpose is to serve the people and protect the freedom of speech.
3. The state has the power to enforce it's will as it has soldiers.
4. Free speech exists as evidenced in this forum

Therefore, as free speech exists that shows the state adheres to it's purpose
Therefore soldiers, as agents of the state, protect freedom of speech.
Likewise:
1. Socrates was a man.
2. All men are mortal.
3. Therefore, all men are Socrates
You'll notice I edited my post while you were replying...

You (mis)quote a classical fallacy... In it, the third point (the conclusion) has no connection to the first two, it violates the transitive property.

My logical chain does not violate the transitive property. Your comparison isn't pertinent.

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noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:09 pm

I'd like to question whether or not the current engagement of Danish troops anywhere in the world (such as Iraq, Kosovo and other places) have any direct relation to my freedom of speech. I think they are completely detached from it. I really don't see how your conclusion follows from your premises.

edit - I think sqook said it best!

second edit in response to your edit - still doesn't hold water. It *might* if soldiers were the only agents of the state and directly related to the keeping of the peace and order in my immediate surroundings, which they obviously aren't. Also, you can't use this forum as an example as it does not fall under the control of the states being served by these soldiers. I suspect it is loosely governed by German laws but as you know full well it's a very anarchic zone, as is most of the internet.

One might add a disclaimer: No soldiers are involved in the sustaining of this forum...

-Paws

montrealbreaks
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Post by montrealbreaks » Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:17 pm

It's funny how often people denigrate soldiers...

Particularly people who oppose capitalism, corporatism, and globalization.

Strong, democratically accountable states with capable, professional militaries are the greatest defence this world has against growing corporate rule.

While computo (and others) may disagree with the US government's decisions regarding where to send their soldiers and what to do with them, he should at least acknowledge that the soldiers themselves are not the cause of war and injustice... It is the political decision makers who ultimately turn the power of the state to good or evil. Soldiers are inheirently apolitical.

They are men and women who aspire to live up to a code of honour, serving their nation, and are willing to die to protect their citizenry. I see the soldier's calling as noble as the call to serve medicine, or the call to teach, or the call to be a spiritual representative of your people.

Who's providing the lion's share of manpower and equipment in pulling survivors out of the Gulf States right now? Soldiers.
Last edited by montrealbreaks on Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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montrealbreaks
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Post by montrealbreaks » Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:20 pm

noisetonepause wrote:I'd like to question whether or not the current engagement of Danish troops anywhere in the world (such as Iraq, Kosovo and other places) have any direct relation to my freedom of speech.
-Paws
Canadian and allied soldiers spilt their own blood in Europe from 1939 to 1945. That has certainly benefitted your freedom of speech today, Paws.

Like I said earlier, don't blame soldiers for the decisions made by politicians. When politicians don't adhere to their duties to safeguard their people through the power of the state, it's the people's responsibility to remove their politicians from power.

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neomodo
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Post by neomodo » Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:34 pm

Well - you guys are goofy - and you take yourselves so seriously about comments made from the hip. - next time you have nothing to do - find a synopsis of the 5th chapter of Dostoevski's Brothers Karamazov. (I suggest a synopsis because most people wouldn't want to actually read it...) There are some interesting points made there regarding some of the drivel I've just read in this thread.

To abhore the behavior of corrupt politicians is in no way a liberal or left wing type of behavior. To spout off uninformed uneducated garbage does you and everyone else a great disservice - as rational human beings we are required to understand the world around us and know about what occurs within it. We may have borders separating us but it is every person's responsibility to make this a better world to live in. The inability to extricate ourselves from the petty issues and look at things more globally may be a fundamental trait but I sure hope not. The state of our planet depends on everyone at least understanding what that condition is and from there it is obvious how industrialism is going to mean horrible living conditions for us IN OUR LIFETIME - and exponentially worse for our children and generations to come.

When several million people are affected by devastating events you can rest assured we all feel it in one way or another. To not feel outraged by the way elected officials respond to different situations say a Tsunami, a Flood, an Earthquake, or a mass genocide is absoloutely the result of despondent, disenfranchised, and probably self-absorbed individuals. Cowardice, Lazyness, Complacency, Apathy, and a Sense of Powerlessness, those are the predominant traits of modern era humans. Putting our immediate needs first to the exclusion of a little bit of foresight and yes perhaps a little idealism too... that's what we're mostly about. We North Americans are the absolute worst - but not by much -

Like it or not every single thing we do and encounter in our silly lives is by definition Political - each person's response whether apathetic, sarcastic, or involved is a political statement. Like it or not. The words you utter in a music software board may be a joke to you and you may not believe that acting in a responsible manner in everything you do is important. That is certainly your perogative - We have freedom to choose - why some of us choose poorly has a lot to do with historical context and sociological /cultural trends and the shit that happens to us as we go through life... and the relative maturity to transcend these external influences. I for one refuse to live my life in such a manner. I want to die knowing that through my actions, to whatever exent this may be, my existence contributed towards making this a better place. Everything we do has meaning - whether you accept that or not ... if not meaning then at the very least -ramifications or repercussions. To me that's a semantic distinction not a true one. It really depends on the degree of moral and existential bankruptcy you are willing to live with.

Michael Moore may or may not be a credible journalist - he may have an agenda that leads him to steer his investigations in one direction or another. But whether I agree, disagree, or believe what he's selling you can't chastise him for actively doing what he believes in and what he believes will make a better world. Regardless of anything, I'm pretty certain that his motives are not monetary. At the very least I'm confident that he is seeking truth and it would be one thing if he was actually making blunt allegations but if you have ever seen anything he's ever done you would know that his approach is Socratic in the sense that he poses a lot of questions, finds evidence of why some of the answers aren't accurate or valid and lets his audience make conclusions for themselves. Perhaps he has a bias, who the hell doesn't? He's certainly accomplished a hell of a lot more than you or I ever will. I'll take an informed and educated bias over any other thank you very much. It's certainly more palatable than believing my country's president has a direct mandate from God to do what he is doing.
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montrealbreaks
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Post by montrealbreaks » Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:56 pm

neomodo wrote: Cowardice, Lazyness, Complacency, Apathy, and a Sense of Powerlessness, those are the predominant traits of modern era humans. Putting our immediate needs first to the exclusion of a little bit of foresight and yes perhaps a little idealism too... that's what we're mostly about. We North Americans are the absolute worst - but not by much -
Which is why I hold soldiers in such high regard. They are willing to put the wellbeing of others above themselves, a quality in short supply in modern western society.

I look at the World War II memorial down the street from where I work where the names of the men who died - gave up their lives, CEASED TO EXIST - are written. They died in a war to defend people in foreign countries from fascism, both German and Japanese... These men could have chosen to sit tight, they could have avoided service, but that's not what a soldier does. The die so that others may live in peace.

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noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:11 pm

montrealbreaks wrote:
noisetonepause wrote:I'd like to question whether or not the current engagement of Danish troops anywhere in the world (such as Iraq, Kosovo and other places) have any direct relation to my freedom of speech.
-Paws
Canadian and allied soldiers spilt their own blood in Europe from 1939 to 1945. That has certainly benefitted your freedom of speech today, Paws.
Sure. And for a number of other things... I must admit to being a bit cynical about wars... you honestly believe that the sole motivation for sending people to war, or indeed for fighting in that war, was ideology?
Also, German soldiers died for their hope for a better world. Or for nothing at all... Europeans have died for some pretty atocious things over the years... et cetera, et cetera... to be honest mate, I'm staring at the screen and having a hard time following your train of thought. And were we not discussing present day now? I know I were - although I suppose if you aren't we've got a bit of a problem now!
Like I said earlier, don't blame soldiers for the decisions made by politicians. When politicians don't adhere to their duties to safeguard their people through the power of the state, it's the people's responsibility to remove their politicians from power.
True, true.

-Paws

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Post by noisetonepause » Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:20 pm

montrealbreaks wrote:It's funny how often people denigrate soldiers...

Particularly people who oppose capitalism, corporatism, and globalization.
As a hardcore (some would say 'ivory tower') financial liberal all i have to say is that war is bad business.
Strong, democratically accountable states with capable, professional militaries are the greatest defence this world has against growing corporate rule.
Education, enlightenment (in the non-esoteric sense of the word), pluralism, openness, and compassion would be the highest on my to-do list for the world, to be honest. I prefer to fight fire with water.
While computo (and others) may disagree with the US government's decisions regarding where to send their soldiers and what to do with them, he should at least acknowledge that the soldiers themselves are not the cause of war and injustice... It is the political decision makers who ultimately turn the power of the state to good or evil. Soldiers are inheirently apolitical.
Not quite what the Nurenberg trials concluded, but I suppose there's a grain of truth in that.
They are men and women who aspire to live up to a code of honour, serving their nation, and are willing to die to protect their citizenry. I see the soldier's calling as noble as the call to serve medicine, or the call to teach, or the call to be a spiritual representative of your people.
That's very romantic (and that's not always bad)... possibly true, but there are many US troops who are in Iraq cos it was either that or McJob. I don't know what it's like in Canada, though... most of the people I know who enjoyed being in the army (we have conscription - they didn't want me though) simple thought it was 'fun'. I don't know anyone who's stayed though, so I can't really comment on the motivations of the average Danish soldier.

-Paws

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