Midi controller: why no program change?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Post Reply
h_razack
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:03 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Midi controller: why no program change?

Post by h_razack » Thu Feb 27, 2003 10:41 am

Hi all,

I know it's been discussed before on this board, but I wasn't able to find a definitive answer or explanation:

Is there an "official" reason why program changes are not supported as Midi events? (I suppose it must be a technical issue or something)

I will use Live with a foot controller, to trigger samples as I play bass guitar. The foot controller (Roland FC200) has a mode where it can send Control messages, but then I can only have 10 of those.
If program changes where supported, I could have about 120 (thanks to bank up/down), and organize everything by songs (0 to 9 for a song, then 10 to 19 for another one, etc... with everything in one live set - for smooth transitions - no loading time)

So, why exactly? :?: (or if it has been addressed before, could someone redirect me?)

Cheers,

Hubert.

h_razack
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:03 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Post by h_razack » Wed Mar 05, 2003 11:44 pm

bump?

LL
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:12 am
Location: by the fjords of norway

Post by LL » Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:45 pm

I know very little about MIDI, but I think this problem is similar to my own. I want to use my Korg ES-1 to control live. Problem is that most of the knobs and buttons are sending sysex MIDI, which live doesn´t recognize. Im using OSX, and I was hoping for a "remapping solution". If my sysex messages were to be remapped into standard MIDI, before they were sent to Live, I would have a lot more knobs and buttons to choose from.

Would this solve h_razacks problem?

Is it possible to do this at all, or am I way ouuut?

tubaz
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 4:00 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Post by tubaz » Thu Mar 06, 2003 7:16 pm

Don´t have an answer... but being in a similar situation using a foot controller...

I´m using (Mac OS X) a program called MIDIPipe which converts MIDI control changes to MIDI notes - in real time.

Check it out in www.versiontracker.com it´s freeware!

h_razack
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:03 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Post by h_razack » Sat Mar 08, 2003 12:01 am

That sounds exactly like what I need!
I'm working on PC so I'll try to find a windows version. I'll post here if I find anything

I wish it could actually be built in Live!

Thanks for the suggestion

Guest

correction

Post by Guest » Sun Mar 09, 2003 11:41 am

Hi, h_razack. If you haven't allready, you should check out http://www.midiox.com

After I've done some digging I feel like correcting myself. In my first post I wrote
Problem is that most of the knobs and buttons are sending sysex MIDI, which live doesn´t recognize.
This is appearantly NOT what's happening, and a MIDI-wiz would probably 8O and :roll:

But what kind of MIDI messages that's beeing sent while I turn my knobs on the electribe, I don't know. I've been fiddling on the MIDI-pipe, trying hard to get it remap and output my knob movements into something LIVE would interpret. Could someone give mea hint, please?

(On a PC it wouldn't been a problem. Since owners of the electribe have made some files, that may be loaded into MIDI-OX.)

LL
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:12 am
Location: by the fjords of norway

Post by LL » Sun Mar 09, 2003 11:53 am

forgot to log in.
LL

LL
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:12 am
Location: by the fjords of norway

nega

Post by LL » Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:01 pm

Just keeping the forum informative;

The knobs on the Electribe ES1 sends NRPN
(Non-Registered Parameter Number)

This is a device-specific MIDI extensions. System Exclusive messages (sysEX) are also MIDI extensions, that may be device-specific or application-specific. (all info from Phil Rees site, who's got an excellent page on the NRPNs http://www.philrees.co.uk/nrpnq.htm)

If I understand this correctly, Live ain't capable of recieving either of these, so owners of equipment thaty sends NRPN are in need of software that can remap it into something Live understands. MidiPIPE seems to be out of the question, since NRPN aren't implemented there, - I think :?

So I conclude - getting my Electribe ES1 knobs to work in live, on a macintosh, is impossible without me getting into programming. (I would love it if someone could disagree with me, but probably you all agree that this topic don't belong in this forum)

LL
LL

h_razack
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:03 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Post by h_razack » Tue Mar 11, 2003 1:01 pm

Ok, I'm about to try to use MIDI OX to convert program changes into CC messages... We'll see.

h_razack
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:03 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Post by h_razack » Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:57 pm

I think I might know why Live can't use program changes!
(OK, most people probably already know that, but well, I'm happy to have found it anyway)

CC or note messages go in pair - e.g. on a foot controller if you press one pedal, it will send something when you press it, and something when you release it (note on or note off / or 0 and 127 for a given controller)

Whereas for a program change, there is just one state.

I assume that's why we can't use program changes.

And that's where MIDI OX doesn't solve my problem. I can easily convert a program change into a controller message, but it will just generate a controller x with value 0 (and not 127 when pressed, and 0 when released)

As a result, in Live, it won't trigger the clip. (All it does is launch the general "play"...)

I'll try to fiddle around with MIDI OX a bit further.

Any idea anyone? (maybe a word from a developer?)

h_razack
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:03 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Post by h_razack » Tue Mar 11, 2003 5:08 pm

Sorry to spam this thread....

I finally found how to do it. When a program change is converted in a controller message with MIDI OX, the value of the controller should be set to 127. This will trigger the clip, and works with any Launch mode.

It now works perfectly for me!

I will try Live on our next gig for the first time. If you're in London, come and check us out: http://www.theaudiojournal.com

Post Reply