holy cow quantise kills

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Chris J
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Re: ..

Post by Chris J » Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:44 pm

montrealbreaks wrote:Well, different strokes for different folks!
exactly ! a little more of Sylvester Stewart's vision of funk in there wouldn't hurt :wink:

I actually felt bad saying that about your track, this is not something I do, I think I did it because you said "listen to my track, it's funky" (which sounds to me a bit like "look at me I'm beautiful, intelligent and modest") and as I devote most of my listening time to funk & funky music, I feel quantize all over the place is not part of it.

And as Dr Funkeinstein said : be true to the funk ! :wink:
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futureproof
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Post by futureproof » Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:46 pm

Johnisfaster wrote:I'll probably get stoned for this but I think portishead and prodigy are excellent examples of how loose quantised beats can be really really groovin. I'm sure they focus greatly on the placement of sounds but not every hit is on the 16th or 32nd all the time which adds alot of energy to any beat.
do you mean to say " I'm sure the drummers they sampled focused greatly on the placement of sounds but not every hit is on the 16th or 32nd all the time which adds alot of energy to any beat.
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rikhyray
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Re: ..

Post by rikhyray » Sat Nov 19, 2005 4:15 pm

Chris J wrote:[.
I listened to the track, and sorry but don't find it funky at all
I am sorry to say but there is absolutely no trace of anything funky in this tune, I am not judging quality or whatever, I am funk junkie since 30 years so know exactly what i am talking about. Sorry nothing personal but it is obvious, that tune is a perfect example of people not understanding what funk is/ was. I do not have time to elaborate on certain technical details it is a big subject. Good funk requires top musicianship, absolute control over instrument, time, music in general. and the ... funk, the feel. Someone who cant hear the differerence between montreals tune ( sorry for hijacking your tune as example, you are doing fine, good work even though no funky) and say P-Funk has a long way to learn but possible also never get it. Having over 20 years of experience auditioning musicians I know some thing will/can never be learned

So better check the Meters, Clintons bands, drummers like Dennis Chambers or Sly Dunbar, if you dont feel or hear the difference, forget about it, it is different taste true, just seems to me that machinate, montreal are not talking different taste but completely different "food" that the name "funk" is associated with something else.

Regarding quantise- funk or groove are built on the base of tensions/ releases, which have to have a point- very precise of reference. Sometimes it may be "invisible" unheard so to non musician it may appear,"free" or loose while in reality it is extremly precisely defined.
The scientist Ernst Cholakis made some interesting research on the subject. Analising the groove templates, opening them in editor is fascinating. Specially tricky are Jamaican rhythms which superficially seem very loose inacurate while they have amazing "inconsistently consistent" quality. There is more mathematic in the music then the no musicians or amateurs might think, what may appear easy and simple on the surface might be highly sophisticated.

The main point is that real musicians are much more precise then the machines, good guitarist can tune a guitar much faster by ear then the best electronic tuner. Technology gets better but I often have to pull out hardware sequencer while working with the rhythmically advanced artists because pc or mac are still too sloppy. BT is not mad hating midi so much, midi sucks most of the time.

Machinate
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Post by Machinate » Sat Nov 19, 2005 4:24 pm

I can totally appreciate that there are underlying schemes to any good loose feel of a song. But in order to objectively say "this is funky / not funky" you need a proper definition of "funky". Give me one, and I'll relate to that :wink:

If Monty or I think that a 100% straight groove can be funky, then what's to say it can't be?
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montrealbreaks
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Post by montrealbreaks » Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:08 pm

First off, thanks for the honest remarks. I am never insulted by constructive criticism. Saying "your track f*cking sucks ass" doesn't help anybody, but looking at the timing and saying "hey dude, that's not funky" certainly does help! Thanks!

Yeah, the beats were tight, but there were other elements to them that were unquantized. That said, it's funny because the track above contains an UNQUANTIZED sample from Eddie Henderson's Kumquat Kids... If you don't know Eddie Henderson, check:

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=573
or
http://www.bluenote.com/artistpage.asp? ... 3710&tab=1

Anyways, in the example Chris J used:
Chris J wrote:Rock it by herbie Hancock : I 'm sure Mr Hancock's riff on the keyboard was NOT quantized, same for the scratching. At the same time it is very robotic on purpose, and not his funkiest track by miles.

Grandmaster Flash : well the rap is the rhythmic & funky element, and I don't think the synths are quantized either.
It's funny because the same 'non-quantized' element over 'quantized beats' exists in my track IceBreaker as well, thanks to Mr. Henderson's rythm section. Interesting. Maybe there's a different reason that Herbie Hankock, Afrika Bambaata and Grandmaster Flash are funky when they use quantized beats and I haven't figured it out yet... Any advice?

By the way, I'm no sample thief - I wrote Blue Note records and they gave me permision to use this sample for "non-commercial" use.

I have changed my username; Now posting as:


M. Bréqs

rikhyray
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Post by rikhyray » Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:07 pm

Advice ? Listening , but not just like listener , you must listen as musician. Analise, write down if you know, understand first then try to reproduce. Cholakis is canadian I think, get some of his stuff, you can hear but then also see exactly what is where. If you are keybordist listen to Herbie, he is just tooooooooooooo funky in whatever he plays, even classic or jazz, I guess he woudnt be able to be unfunky.
Some 20 years ago, I remember exactly the situation, "trying" to play something sensible in front of musical legend, he told me " your ass has to move, if ass is not moving - it is not happening".
While writting, programming remember about the "points of orientation"- hard quantized you may say and then the rest that makes the tensions.
If you are not able to sit anymore, your ass is jumping, you are forced by invisible force to move something, anything, your body getting out of control then you are doing it right.

Chris J
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Post by Chris J » Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:32 pm

futureproof wrote:do you mean to say " I'm sure the drummers they sampled focused greatly on the placement of sounds but not every hit is on the 16th or 32nd all the time which adds alot of energy to any beat.
I don't know Prodigy very well, this is not my kind of stuff, but listened a bit to Portishead 's dummy when it came out, and I think, if my memory's good, the guy who DJs played real drums on some tracks.
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Johnisfaster
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Post by Johnisfaster » Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:35 pm

yeah they have some real drums, but also loops of real drums

the point is they have major swing going on on their tracks which to me sounds fantastic. if you took their stuff and quantised it to 16th notes I think you'd darn near kill the music.
It was as if someone shook up a 6 foot can of blood soda and suddenly popped the top.

Johnisfaster
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Post by Johnisfaster » Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:41 pm

and I pretty much garuantee that they didn't sample all their drums off of dummy, I'm sure at some point they programmed something.
It was as if someone shook up a 6 foot can of blood soda and suddenly popped the top.

Chris J
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Post by Chris J » Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:49 pm

montrealbreaks wrote: It's funny because the same 'non-quantized' element over 'quantized beats' exists in my track IceBreaker as well, thanks to Mr. Henderson's rythm section. Interesting. Maybe there's a different reason that Herbie Hankock, Afrika Bambaata and Grandmaster Flash are funky when they use quantized beats and I haven't figured it out yet... Any advice?

By the way, I'm no sample thief - I wrote Blue Note records and they gave me permision to use this sample for "non-commercial" use.
I listened to your track again and man , Eddie Henderson's very well hidden. You could have done without the clearing
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quandry
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Post by quandry » Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:09 am

my funky tune, all live in Live:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInf ... gID=878825

cowbell=funk :lol:
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