tempo/ beat matching between ableton and vinyl/cdj

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
mobsta
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tempo/ beat matching between ableton and vinyl/cdj

Post by mobsta » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:12 pm

Question...

I have been trying to beat match ableton into vinyl or CDJs... the problem is that the nudge button can only be set to 1/32 quantization, and does not work like a typical nudge or tempo slider on a turntable or CDJ. I understand you can assign the master tempo to a midi control fader but this is proving tricky.

Is there an easier way i have overlooked.

cheers in advance.

amo
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Post by amo » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:14 pm

Hi,

I haven't tried to beatmatch as you did, but I believe that the nudge can go very tiny if you set the global quantization to none. Would that work ?
Best,
amo
Live 5.0.3 - IBM Thinkpad R51 1.5ghz Centrino - 1,5 Go RAM - 7200 RPM 2nd HDD intern - RME Multiface - Windows XP Pro SP2

Nixon
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Post by Nixon » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:24 pm

if you open midi mapping mode, you can assign the nudge buttons, and a square in between, wich you can assign to an endless rotary. this way you can nudge continiously, without deactivating quantization.
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mobsta
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Post by mobsta » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:30 pm

Cheers and thanks for your help.

rob.

Krugger
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Post by Krugger » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:34 pm

set quantize to None and then nudge - this will work - i use it and am 200% sure it works

this technique has a major flaw though: by nudging manually (i.e, zero quantise), you'll put the ableton track out of sync with the Ableton clock.
When you set quantize back to (say) 1 bar, the next track you bring in from ableton wont beatmatch with the track you used nudge on.

the thing to do is:
bring in the next ableton track (on CUE and a short start loop - say 4 bars) and instead of nudging the new track, set global quantize back to Zero and nudge the outgoing track instead (you're basically re-aligning it with the Ableton clock)

When your outgoing track is re-aligned and your new (incoming) track is properly beatmatched, get out of CUE mode, exit the loop and bring it in.

A bit difficult to explain but hope it makes sense

Kr.

Krugger
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Post by Krugger » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:36 pm

Nixon wrote:if you open midi mapping mode, you can assign the nudge buttons, and a square in between, wich you can assign to an endless rotary. this way you can nudge continiously, without deactivating quantization.
by not deactivating quantization, the end result is not good at all. Any quantize level doesn't give a typical nudge result, like mobsta wants.

Kr

Nixon
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Post by Nixon » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:41 pm

ow ok, never tried it, but just let loose common sense on this one... :roll:
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mobsta
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Post by mobsta » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:42 pm

Excellent,...... just tried this and it works perfectly.

Thanks again.

JohnDP
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Post by JohnDP » Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:02 pm

whatever is done, its always only a workaround...

ABLETON NEEDS A GOBAL NUDGE FUNCTION!!!!!!!!

subterFUSE
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Post by subterFUSE » Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:10 pm

Don't use the nudge feature. I have a better way:



Begin by assigning the Master Tempo to a MIDI slider or knob on your controller. Set the range to something closer to your desired play range. I use 116-130 BPM as my range. This makes your MIDI slider more precise in the increments of adjustment.

Next, turn on the Metronome and hit the tap tempo button a few times in line with the beat of the CD or record you are mixing out of. After 4 taps, the metronome will kick in at the approx BPM you have tapped. Immediately start using the "pitch control" slider you assigned to beatmatch the metronome to the sound of the record playing.... just like you would with a turntable.

When you start to get close to a perfect tempo match, you can begin to type in numbers for the decimal place of the tempo in the master tempo. This will help get you even closer.

Now... you should be ready to mix. Since you have lined up with the metronome, you can trigger your Live clip normally as you would in a Live Set.

While in the mix, you may need to make some fine-tune corrections to the tempo to keep it lined up. I do this by using the arrow keys. If you click your mouse on the Master Tempo, and then push the Up arrow on the keyboard, the Master Tempo will increase by exactly 1 BPM, retaining your decimal places. (Example... you are playing at 123.45 BPM, and then hit the up arrow... the tempo will become 124.45 BPM.)

You tap the up arrow... and then the down arrow... and the BPM will jump up and then back to the tempo you started from. This is similar to hitting a Pitch Bend button on a CD Player. It acts like the "nudge" feature everyone keeps talking about.



Try this method. I find it works very well for me... and it lets me keep Quantization ON. Let me know if you have any questions.

JohnDP
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Post by JohnDP » Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:21 pm

it acts like but it ISN't!

Sorry but until Ableton will not come up with a DECENT way to nudge then i will not be using it in conjunction to my CD players and trust me i am not the only one who feels this way...

JDP

Krugger
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Post by Krugger » Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:42 pm

yeah well, I can always shout, tap my foot, hit the roof etc etc and not use my cd players with ableton until ableton implements something my way

or

i could use a workaround, in the meantime

I prefer the 2nd solution as bitching and moaning kind of lead...nowhere. It's not Ableton's is gonna go "Oh...shit!! we're scared!! STOP ALL Development! We need Global Nudging NOW!!"

They'll released things when they deem necessary and at the time they think best and no matter how much angry/frustrated anyone can get, the software WILL STILL sell.

Besides, I would find it a bit dorky to mix in and out of cd players every 2 tracks - when i mix in a cd player, i tend to stick to the players for a little while and then go back to ableton.
hence the pitching, warping, tapping, nudging business is not required on a frequent basis

Why use cd players in that case? cause i just downloaded/ripped/obtained a few tracks that i cant be arsed to go and warp etc and wanna drop a few tunes in quick and easy and mix the old-school way.

Not a personal attack - just my opinion

Kr.

subterFUSE
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Post by subterFUSE » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:08 pm

Right.


I only use the mixing method once, when I mix out of someone I follow. My method works perfectly. It's just as good as having a Global Nudge. I just had to figure it out for myself.

But it works. I suggest you all try it. Certainly beats stopping the music just to mix into Ableton.

DeadlyKungFu
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Post by DeadlyKungFu » Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:11 pm

Sorry, but I think that's a bit lazy...

Learn to use your tools. You should be able to beatmatch to a washing machine, let alone something as stable as Ableton. Vinyl skips, if you use vinyl you should be able to control it.

Otherwise... get the bpms dialed in, listen to Ableton on a cue channel (headphones), launch a clip, if it's on, fade in, if not, try again. Or launch Ableton and if it's off, grab the vinyl, scratch on a snare for a few beats and drop the vinyl back over Ableton.

Practice, practice, practice, you'll develop your own tricks to fit your style, whether it's vinyl manipulation, using delays to fade in/out, sudden transitions, EQ cuts, whatever...

IMHO it's easier to get it right in the first place than to nudge it into place. At that point you're talking about just getting it on the beat, let alone 'in the groove', which can be a level of detail beyond 1/32 notes.

lerky
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Post by lerky » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:28 pm

this really worked for me,

if you could ever beatmix with turntables this will be easy as
http://www.liveuser.org/articles/index.php?m=20040820

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