Help with foot control MIDI Map for Live...Live!?!

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quandry
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Help with foot control MIDI Map for Live...Live!?!

Post by quandry » Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:45 am

I'm a live rookie, but learning and loving more about it daily. I play basses, guitar, and keyboards (and reason 2.0 synths) into live and am trying to get ready to play live with one of my groups using Live 2.0 on a toshiba satelite P4 2.4, 1 gig RAM, RME multiface (soundcard). I make beats in fruity loops and import a stereo .wav file, and now am attempting to loop bass, then layers of keys to a looped part of the pre-recorded drumbeat (as in the first verse/chorus out of 4 or 5 v/c's). After getting a bass and key loop going, I want to duplicate these loops to fill out the rest of the dynamic drum file, and then continue playing simple hooks over the top with a keyboard,while a guitarist also plays throughout. I'm tying to record the guitarists part straight through, while punching in and out for my loops.

My goal is to use my Behringer FCB 1010 Midi foot controller to send the proper midi cc commands to punch in and out automatically exactly on the endpoints of the loop. I also really need the sound to smothly continue as it punches out at the end and comes back to the top of the loop. This seems to require having the monitor icon switch from on to off as recording stops and the loop re-starts. I've set up patches on the FCB to switch the monitor and record tabs on the proper channel on to start recording, and the punch in feature works perfectly in loop mode. however, the punch out does not work. The track continues to record at the begining of the loop, even with the punch out feature on. I know I can "unroll" the loop or something, but I'm trying to perform smothly live. The FCB patch I set up to turn off record and monitor tabs on the track, which I hit right at the end of the loop, does turn off the monitor and record icons, and stops recording, but I'm back to my boss loop station technology of trying to hit the loop at just the right point to get the loop the right length. I know I can stretch the loop to get it the right length, but it's a pain, and if the loop is too long its even more of a pain. It seems in the somewhat limited manual (and my limited experience) ,that the loop function and punch-in/outs are mutually exclusive??? I thought it would be so easy to just record one pass in the loop region on a fresh track with recording endpoints precisely on loop endpoints, duplicate it as needed, the turn off the loop to go with the drum flow. No such easy luck yet. Any help greatly appreciated!

Ryan Hughes

rdh3t@hotmail.com

quandry
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follow-up

Post by quandry » Tue Mar 18, 2003 2:13 pm

Here's a condesed simpler versin of my prior message. I've been reading forum posts for hours about looping live. It's hard to believe a program like live, called LIVE, meant for performing LIVE can't even really loop live as well as lowly hardware such as the the boss loop station (actually a reliable albeit too simple pedal). Why did I but his program--to record live loops on the fly. Can it do it simply or at all--seems like the jury is still out. Frustration level-HIGH.

why can't I set the loop region, send a midi command to start recording (punch in) when the song hits the loop area (I usually have some blank space at the begining of a song before the loop region), then automatically punch out and stop recording at the end of the loop, and immediatly go into playback. Even when i send a midi message to turn record and monitor off on the channel at the end of the loop, it does go back to the top and plays the loop, but even with record on that channel off (global record still on), it seems to be "eating" what I hear--i.e. as it is playing back the recorded loop the first time, even with the track record off, the waveform I'm seeing and hearing is dissapearing behing the cursor as it moves--why?? THe record is off dammit! So all i get is the live loop, one time of playback, then its gone. It seems like it should be so simple, that the foundation of the program should be the ability to create a live loop with a real instrument in front of a live audience--you know--LIVE! I appreciate all of the flexibility, effects, quantiztion, blah, blah, blah, but that means shit to me if I can't even get a simple loop going without sound drop outs, without having to hit my footpedal at the exact right time, without having to use my mouse onstage.

janklug
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live Live live

Post by janklug » Tue Mar 18, 2003 4:30 pm

I thought it would be so easy
...yeah, even flexible programs sometimes are not made for everything... :wink:

for real live looping there are a couple of specialised programs (that on the other hand might miss the features of live), as for example Lisa (by Steim, www.steim.nl - however, mac os9 only).
everything real time controllable, but not really with syncing features... :cry:

but I think Live can do the trick with a little workaround :!: :idea: :!: :
try it thru the effect way!

1. take a live input & an effect track; assign a midi pedal to the effect send (1 press = on for example); that way, you can send signal to the "sampler".
2. in the Send Track, place a delay that can be set to 100% feedback (live's "simple delay" only goes to 95%, so I'd advise the filter delay, with the "L" and the "R" input switched off (only "L+R" active); also the filter section switched off (or assigned to another midi switch...).
3. assign a foot pedal / switch to the feedback knob, so you can choose "off" (0) or "sample" (100) or something in between.
4. select a synced delay time according to your wishes (although in live, they should be limited to 16 beats)
5. assign other midi controllers to the output level of that delay, or to switch it off, or whatever

this way, you can build your own flexible sampler; other VST plugs may offer longer sampling times, or the song tempo could be lowered to prolong that of the built-in effects.
syncing with beats and combination with other effects is easy, and you can still sample the output into a Live-clip, if you want to keep it.

I'm trying to do about the same thing at the moment, but then with Live in combination with another program (max/msp), that allows me to write my own "behaviour" of midi messages from my controllers (for example, build 3 of these "sample lines" described above, and having the possibility to assign a foot pedal to any of these by pressing a midi button).
but it's not yet enough to replace my main "instrument", my good old boss dd-3 delay pedal (with hold! :D )

working on it..

hope that this might help,

greetings

jan

pixelmechanic
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Post by pixelmechanic » Wed Mar 19, 2003 12:08 pm

Jan,

If you're using max/msp, I found Ken Mistove's patch "Procrastination" to be a pretty good jumping off point for my own looper (which I've set up to be controlled by Behringer foot controller)

If you can't find the patch, or don't already have it I can send it to you...
pixelmechanic - sound vs. vision - appropriation vs. improvisation

www.pixelmechanics.com/sonic

joshcarter
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Post by joshcarter » Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:26 pm

The way I know to do this is:

- Set your quantization to bar
- Hit 'record' during the measure before you're going to record
- Hit 'stop' during the measure before you want the loop to stop
- The loop should now be cleanly at bar boundaries, and playing

It would be nice if global quantization could be set to 2/4/8 bars and whatnot, like clip quantization. (Perhaps the clip can be created ahead of time?) Also, Live 1.5 had problems stopping at the right place -- it was easy to make loops that were a beat too short -- but I think that was fixed in 2.0. I can't verify, as I haven't upgraded yet.

-Josh

Guest

Post by Guest » Thu Mar 20, 2003 6:19 am

Hi there Ryan,

I don't exactly understand what it is you want to do, but I will try to explain.


" why can't I set the loop region, send a midi command to start recording (punch in) when the song hits the loop area (I usually have some blank space at the begining of a song before the loop region), then automatically punch out and stop recording at the end of the loop, and immediatly go into playback. "

Are you saying that you want to stop recording, and commence playback without you having to press the footpedal?

I don't understand the problem..

however, I do understand your frustration. LIVE imho, is in dire need of some overhaul of it's "record" concept.

I would love to see LIVE run much more like a hardware looper, where it is easy to
-set a loop length arbitrarily
-punch in and out any loop at any time
-overdub loops

I think the solution to your problem would probably be found by just triggering clips to record and then playback... ie to not run the arranger in loop mode, just set up your clip defaults to 'quantize by bar'.

you just need to send a midi note (or other midi data i think) to trigger the clips..

i can explain better when i know how you are using live, eg are you monioring thru live?

cheers,
-Keith (songcarver)

quandry
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Post by quandry » Sun Mar 23, 2003 2:22 am

" why can't I set the loop region, send a midi command to start recording (punch in) when the song hits the loop area (I usually have some blank space at the begining of a song before the loop region), then automatically punch out and stop recording at the end of the loop, and immediatly go into playback. "

Are you saying that you want to stop recording, and commence playback without you having to press the footpedal?

I don't understand the problem.."

Sorry if I'm being unclear. I basically want it to work like my loopstation and other hardware loopers. With a tempo and loop region established in Live, I want to have the recoding of a given track start and stop exactly on loop endpoints--i don't mind having to hit a midi pedal to send the appropriate messages, but I want it to start and stop exactly at the ends of the measures--maybe josh's suggestion in the post before yours is my ticket, i haven't tried it yet.


"however, I do understand your frustration. LIVE imho, is in dire need of some overhaul of it's "record" concept.

I would love to see LIVE run much more like a hardware looper, where it is easy to
-set a loop length arbitrarily
-punch in and out any loop at any time
-overdub loops"


TOTALLY. Live SORELY needs to add a button (like one of the midi assignable monitor, rec arm... buttons) to each track that is a loop record button--hit it to start the loop on that track, and again to stop/loop. It should be that you set the master loop region and tempo, then just hit the button at begining and end of loop (Live should make it quantizable--i.e. you don't have to nail the end of the loop button press, it would quantize to the next closest measure, beat, 16th note--whatever you choose) and your looping. After its looping, it should be that you can hit the same button again to begin overdub recording on the track, hitting it yet again to stop overdubing, repeat to desired taste. It seems so simple and necessary, for live to truly live up to its name, it should be possible to sample instruments live into it, creating seemless, perfect (tempo-wise) loops. Otherwise, lets be honest, it really isn't Live, dragging clips around and pasting stuff. I want to perform in front of people, and play instuments LIve, not move a mouse and hit some key commands live. Sadly, my boss loop station is currently a superior looping device, and I'm waiting impatiently for Live to address this serious oversight/flaw/contradiction to the name of the program.

I think the solution to your problem would probably be found by just triggering clips to record and then playback... ie to not run the arranger in loop mode, just set up your clip defaults to 'quantize by bar'."

How would I set it up so that the 4 measure clip i record keeps playing back over and over when not in loop mode, even as the other tracks keep on rolling along? COuld i set it up to not run in loop mode, and using only midi messages, start and stop, and infinitely playback a clip over and over, even as the rest of the arrangement keeps rolling past where I recorded the clip?

"you just need to send a midi note (or other midi data i think) to trigger the clips..

i can explain better when i know how you are using live, eg are you monioring thru live?"

Monitoring through live, and also looking for looping solutions that don't involve turning off the master record, so that i can record a guitarist playing continuously through. I'm a rookie, and really appreciate the input, I've read your posts and checked out your website SongCarver--you are the man. I'm bummed a few links in your posts to your Live setups we're no longer working. Thanks again everyone, I sure hope live listens to us performers and updates their potentially very powerful software accordingly. There are a LOT of guitarist and instumentalists experiementing with looping (I would venture to guess there are many more times looping musicians than there are owners of live software)--i.e. Live is missing out on a large portion of the market for the future by not having controls like hardware loopers--one button does all simplicity, overdubbing, etc.

Thanks again!

Ryan

Guest

Post by Guest » Sun Mar 30, 2003 4:56 am

Any luck with this? I've been waiting for a seemless looping solution or workaround eversince I first saw Live...

quandry
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Post by quandry » Sun Mar 30, 2003 3:06 pm

Nope, no solid workaround for seemless looping that i've been able to get to work yet--I didn't have much luck with the suggestions above--I can't seem to get it to quantize anything. The suggetion about being able to quantize by bar and just hit the pedal during the measure before the one on which yoiu want to record, and hit is again during the last measure you're recording would be good enough for me--perfect endpoint without a need for total exact foot precision. However, I haven't got it to work for me--someone please help!! Please describe in detail how and where to properly set the quantization to do this--do i need to be in loop mode, do i set the quantiztion in the preferences>default, or in options, what about clip update rate, and what is the with the preferences>defaults>clips settings: trigger, gate, one shot....????? or if someone has a better looping solution please share. It seems to me that all of the clip features are worthless when creating loops on the fly, as there is no clip until you start recording it on the fly, at which point the clip features are unavialible 'til you stop recording, at which point they are no longer any help creating an on the fly loop. WTF????? Why is it so hard to get a simple loop going using a real instrument and midi foot controller live?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? :( :( :cry: :cry: :x :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

Guest

Post by Guest » Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:51 am

joshcarter wrote:The way I know to do this is:

- Set your quantization to bar
- Hit 'record' during the measure before you're going to record
- Hit 'stop' during the measure before you want the loop to stop
- The loop should now be cleanly at bar boundaries, and playing

It would be nice if global quantization could be set to 2/4/8 bars and whatnot, like clip quantization. (Perhaps the clip can be created ahead of time?) Also, Live 1.5 had problems stopping at the right place -- it was easy to make loops that were a beat too short -- but I think that was fixed in 2.0. I can't verify, as I haven't upgraded yet.

-Josh
Thanks,

Thats is the answer i am looking for.
:Set your quantization to bar ! and the clips started at the end of the bar!
instead in the midlle of the measure.

Bob

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