OT : NOT IN OUR NAME - Spread The Message ...

[Alex Reynolds]

[quote="borg"]people are people, not that different than any other animal (or plant). we all want the best for ourself and (maybe) the closest to us.
the strongest/'smarter' ones get the most, and leave the bits to the weaker kind. the most healthy lions eat the best part of the zebra, then the rest is for the not so popular part of the group. what's left after they've eaten is for hyena's and vultures.[/quote]

"Survival of the fittest is the slogan for capitalism, while justice and fair play are the watchwords of democracy." - Walter Mosley

[D.Ad.]

I think it's fairly obvious that the protests have more to do with Anti-Bush rhetoric and out right hatred towards the man, than a "peaceful solution" to the ongoing Saddam-Murder problem. Why have they no answers to decapitating the MURDERERS of Iraq and consquently solving decades of rape and torture? How many times must I hear "well, we don't like Saddam either, he's a 'bad guy' but we REALLY hate Bush." Also it bothers me the World Workers Party (an outright Communist organization) is financial funding and organizing ALL of the so called peace protests, and that nobody seems to deduce the blatent politics involved with the protests? Why weren't these huge groups mobilized in 1998 when Clinton bombed Iraq for the very same reasons? How about Serbia? Are some "anti-war" types ok with some wars but not others? How do they decide which Iraq conflict they will protest against?
I think that it is safe to say that: A)they are either incredibly uneducated B) Conveniently contridictory in their anti-war sentiments or C) They have been duped by radical left wing orginizations, and being used as political pawns, knowingly or unknowingly.
I agree with all of you who have critized the US government for it's past mistakes including the arming of Saddam in the 80's, but that was then, this is now. Should we really perpetuate our prior mistakes by letting Saddam continue to murder rape and torture and quite possibly arm terrorist groups that want to kill us? Unfortunately I really don't think there is a robust or satisfactory alternative to this war. Containment is appeasement in this case. Appeasement is a failed foreign strategy, if you don't believe me just take a look at North Korea and tell me how our appeasement and good faith worked for containing it's proliferation of Nuclear Arms. It did not. Now we are facing a crisis in that country as well. We have correctly decided that Saddam will never recieve the opprotunity to black mail and bully the world and especially it's neighbors, with nuclear weapons. How can that be wrong? I can only hope that the current adminstration will do the right thing after Saddam is brought to justice and show the world that a truely democratic Iraq is a goal. And that war was not just an excuse to benefit financialy, although that will happen so don't be shocked. But please let's not make anymore excuses against the obvious humanitarian benefits of this war for those in Iraq and subsequently the rest of the world. And if you hate America than just say it. If you hate Bush then say that. But if you are seriously anti-war no matter what the circumstances, then where were you during Clinton's War Campaigns?

[Alex Reynolds]

Why have they no answers to decapitating the MURDERERS of Iraq and consquently solving decades of rape and torture?

Here is one answer for you: stop democratic governments from secretly and not so secretly funding and promoting dictatorships.

Here's the infamous picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm

Why are my tax dollars paying Rumsfeld's salary when the man is an accomplice to murder and torture of thousands?

Why weren't these huge groups mobilized in 1998 when Clinton bombed Iraq for the very same reasons? How about Serbia? Are some "anti-war" types ok with some wars but not others? How do they decide which Iraq conflict they will protest against?

Actually there was protest but -- as with the start of protest this time around -- mainstream press did not cover it. As a matter of fact, the media was obsessed entirely with the Republican-led Clinton impeachment at the time.

Clinton gets a blow job and earns impeachment from a Republican Congress. CNN brings us 24/7 coverage speculating how well endowed he is while bombs drop in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Bush and Blair inch us closer to world war and earn a free pass from the media. Any mention of impeaching these clowns earns you a dirty look and accusations of treason.

Up is down, black is white, etc. etc.

Containment is appeasement in this case.

Containment might have given Blix's team enough time to do their job properly. Of course, this is all beside the point, now.

Appeasement is a failed foreign strategy, if you don't believe me just take a look at North Korea and tell me how our appeasement and good faith worked for containing it's proliferation of Nuclear Arms. It did not. Now we are facing a crisis in that country as well.

Oops!

Before landing a cushy job as Secrectary of Defense, guess who worked on the board of directors for ABB, a multinational engineering firm based in Switzerland?

Yes, that would be no other than Donald H. Rumsfeld:

http://www.abb.com/global/abbzh/abbzh25 ... F8002A7CB5

Thanks for the link, ABB!

This same firm -- under Rumsfeld's direction -- sold two light-water nuclear reactors to North Korea in February 2000:

http://www.abb.com/global/abbzh/abbzh25 ... 6C00433604

Thanks again, ABB!

Light-water reactors are capable of uranium refinement, a necessary step in constructing nuclear fission weaponry.

This isn't the 1980s, again, but February 2000.

Come 2003 and Kim Jong Il now threatens China, South Korea, Japan, and western US with nuclear war.

The people in our government are the same assholes profiting from the wars, misery and terror they cause around the world.

Rumsfeld is but one example of many in this sordid, ugly affair:

http://cryptome.org/perle-apes.htm

(The original Wall Street Journal article is available if you're a subscriber.)

As a pragmatic antiwar protester who understands we cannot turn back any longer, I wish speedy and humane capitulation of the enemy, as few casualities as possible on both sides, to do my patriotic duty as a future citizen of the US to vote George II and his fellow evil cronies out of office in the 2004 elections, and to make sure whoever gets voted in follows through on our moral and political obligations in post-war Iraq and Afghanistan to secure long-term peace.

What do you plan to do?

-Alex

[Guest]

Awesome Reply Alex! All you blood-Thirsty-Bush-Backers take a seat. You're defeated! It's pointless to try to compete with Alex's clump of facts. I just read an article in the NY Times Stating that 3 CIA Analysts have resigned as a reult of having to conform their research results to bush's policy's. As it reads the main frustrations are the false links between al Qaeda and Iraq. Whether you agree with the war or not, at least acknowledge the fact that you're getting fed a bunch of bullshit. I watched Tommy Franks explain how war was last option. He kept saying it was last option. Minutes later he was asked if he thought there might be any suprises to come, he said: "well when you've been planning a war for a year.................." I couldn't hear the rest over my laughter. Last option? Why have "you" been planning a war for a year then?

[D.Ad.]

Man I didn't reply to alex only because I do question the our Governments policies at times. But I also don't live in Disneyland where some of you peace activists seem to live. The world is an extremely dangerous place, especially with cats like the guy above me hoping to god that the US doesn't have any plans to defend itself. Have you ever heard of the phrase contingency plan. And you laughed because Franks has been planning the war for over a year? He's a fucking General, he better have a plan for all the assholes in the world who are acting shitty and planning to kill civilians for Allah. On the real I just love music and I enjoy my freedoms here in the US. Lots of people are jealous of the lifestyle that many here are able to achieve. I don't really care if the world likes us or not. Politics is just war without the bullets and bombs anyways. Thats why the UN failed to back it's own resolutions, because of politics and politcs is about money. Now we will benifit from a legal government in Iraq instead of France, Russia, and China and Syria benefiting from the current human waste which dictates the policies of death in Iraq. Some of you act like there is some sort of magical utopian Government which stands on the right side of every issue and is morally righteous at all costs and at all times. That is a joke. I don't trust our Gov. I don't want them snooping around in our business. I do however want them to protect me. From what you say? From the Bin Laden's and every other group and/or Government that turns a blind eye to terror organizations. If those groups are in this country we need to find them. If they are in Iraq we need to kill them there. As far as I'm concerned a war was officially declared on Sept.11th 2001 a war that had been building for a long time. I don't like the term don't like the analogy of Doves versus Hawks, I would actually label most Doves as Ostriches because their heads are buried firmly in the sand when it comes to nationaly security. Our government should quit trying to play nice to every little dictator and pressure group and stand up like the super power we are and settle our differences. Either economicaly or by force as a last resort. We are seeing that happen now, beginning with Saddam regime. The war is against those gangsters, not the average citizen. When it is finished we will all get to see the torture chambers and rape rooms. We will find the w.m.d.s and the illegally sold contraband from our so called "allies" in the UN. We will get a chance to hear the stories of murder and neanderthal type injustice that have fueled Iraqs current leadership through fear and murder and then the doves will be exposed for what they are, pussies that don't want stand up and settle the shit that world breeds. The hornets have already been stirred up in their nest. It's our job to exterminate them. This is World War III, lets just hope we and our allies can squash the enemy before they get ahold of nuclear weapons and decide to use them against our good cities. I am a nationalist, I love America and I am proud of this fine country even though it is not perfect. I would never want to be a politician because I know politics are corrupt. It is unfortunately a neccesary evil that exists in every country. Magic does not run countries. Money does. I wish that men like Alex would become politicians and stick to their convictions and expose those who would steer our country into problems. However I doubt Alex has a crystal ball. We thought helping France out in WWII was a great idea and look how they treat us now, with contempt. I say we should have let the Nazi's keep France and show them what pain and suffering is all about. We don't owe the UN a thing. They owe us. When anyone really needs help they come to the US not the UN. The UN is an academic formality. I hope it can make itself useful again but it's relevencey and legitamancy remains to be seen. They should have said NO to Saddam in the strongest way possible before the war began and we might not have had a war. Instead we were supposed to take Saddams word that he was dissarming. What a joke. If the UN makes rules they need to enforce them otherwise they become nothing more than a glorfied debating society. I blame the UN for the War proper and the backlash from the protesters. It made it's decision based on politics rather than facts. Inspections were a pipe dream from the get go in 1991 and deep down in your heart you know it. I'm unhappy that war is neccesary, but it's part of life that has effected every generation since mankind began, because a percentage of mankind is inherently evil and thats my word. I am just a lowly musician so I have to dead this issue because I am just happy to rock my software in my studio. I am also a business man so I believe in capitalism and free market. Communism does not work, socialism does not work. Capitalism while flawed, has the best chance of creating opportunities for the average joe and even the lowly musician. If you want it bad enough you can work at it and probably get it. I know why my family fled the country we came from to raise me here and I appereciate that every day. My life would have been beyond fucked up at home, so now this is my home and I love it for better and for worse. Till death do us part. Bush has conviction about his job, thats something that Clinton, Bush Snr. and Carter did not have. For that i give credit where credit is due and wish him well. If we do the right thing in Iraq after Saddam is ousted I will happily vote for him on his next term even though I voted for Gore last time around. Liberals are just to soft on issues of national defense in 2003 and this country needs leaders with the convictions to prosecute a just war if thats what it comes down to. good luck and peace to all of you.

[Guest]

Your country may need it's leaders but most of us outside of your shores not only DON'T but don't even get a say in the matter. How come US citizens seem to know so much about other cultures and how the rest of the world works yet over 82% od them don't even own a passport!?

It's become trendy to put down any thought other than what is the current line as 'liberal' or 'conspiritorial' and that seems to be that. "That ain't how I see it so it can't be true". Wake up, if you truly think that these people are the best that your country can offer out of 300,000,000 "citizens" then we really are in the $H17!

When was the last time anyone was terrorised\attacked\invaded\liberated, or caught in 'friendly fire', by a horde of left wing hippies? Bring 'em back I say, fill the planet with them! I don't care if they do smell and hug trees, apparently, at least they don't wear Nike trainers, baseball caps and nod like a dog with a "Yo", "Respek". Of course that could be because they are all completely stoned, while being smelly in groups tree hugging and conspiring of course, but then maybe that's given them time to look at things slightly differently from Joe Big Businessman who's dad is oh so noble and want's tp spread freedom for no self-gain?

We need more sandal-wearers, if it was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me. Excuse me while I go find my piss-stained underpants and live a peaceful existence void of all this "I know more than you do even though I work in Burger King (Other brands are available) bullshit.

[Guest]

Your country may need it's leaders but most of us outside of your shores not only DON'T but don't even get a say in the matter. How come US citizens seem to know so much about other cultures and how the rest of the world works yet over 82% od them don't even own a passport!?

It's become trendy to put down any thought other than what is the current line as 'liberal' or 'conspiritorial' and that seems to be that. "That ain't how I see it so it can't be true". Wake up, if you truly think that these people are the best that your country can offer out of 300,000,000 "citizens" then we really are in the $H17!

When was the last time anyone was terrorised\attacked\invaded\liberated, or caught in 'friendly fire', by a horde of left wing hippies? Bring 'em back I say, fill the planet with them! I don't care if they do smell and hug trees, apparently, at least they don't wear Nike trainers, baseball caps and nod like a dog with a "Yo", "Respek". Of course that could be because they are all completely stoned, while being smelly in groups tree hugging and conspiring of course, but then maybe that's given them time to look at things slightly differently from Joe Big Businessman who's dad is oh so noble and want's tp spread freedom for no self-gain?

We need more sandal-wearers, if it was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for us! Excuse me while I go find my piss-stained underpants and live a peaceful existence void of all this "I know more than you do even though I work in Burger King (Other brands are available) bullshit.

[The_Truth]

Jesus and Allah are both myths. Live in the real world.

All of these wars over religion and God. Who needs it!?

If this is what religion brings, thank God I'm an Atheist!

[Guest]

Religion!!?? That had nothing to do with religion, just with using your brain a bit

[Guest]

"Jesus and Allah are both myths. Live in the real world."

Well, the creator thing is still under divided opinion unfortunately but it's been a pretty complicated fairy-tale so far.

That there was a dude named Jesus who was undoubtedly in the same blood-line as David Copperfield seems fair enough really. A shame there weren't any cameras around really, I'm sure someone would have mad a great film or 5 (II, 3D, Returns, Revenge of, Goes Camping, etc).

I take your point though.

[atom_b]

Liberals are just to soft on issues of national defense in 2003 and this country needs leaders with the convictions to prosecute a just war if thats what it comes down to. good luck and peace to all of you.

Remains the question what this nation is defending against.

U.S. GOVERNMENT ANNOUNCEMENT
The government announced today that it is changing its emblem to a condom, because it more clearly reflects the government’s political stance. A condom stands up to inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation, protects a bunch of pricks, and gives you a sense of security, while you’re actually being screwed. It doesn’t get much more accurate than that.

Peace to y'all

[geargasm]

I'm so confused.

Here's is the real enemy here. No, not the french (although a big part of me would like to say yes, the french). Stupidity. Yes, that includes both the people who are anti-war calling the pro-war people stupid. It's all stupid. Your continued existance as a human is stupid.

The enemy in all this is how people have turned on each other. Just because I lean a little bit to the right on some issues, some people have called me a racist war monger. I would like to be able to go to France, but I'd totally fear a public lynching. I've been planning a trip to holland/germany, but that will probably be off too. Why? What have I done wrong?

As of today, I hate everyone. Even if you like me, fuck you. Fuck your mom, fuck your momma's momma, fuck the beastie boys and the dali llama.

[Guest]

Aah, c'mon, that's really stupid!

You're just a human, thus always subject to confusion, like everyone. You're not anyone's enemy only because you think you're at war, I am not at war. What makes you think you could get killed? To the contrary, travel to Europe, travel to the East, you would lively up yourself and maybe have some more insight why people outside the U.S. not necessarily think like people in the U.S.
I for one do not think being against this war could make me a better human being, and I don't think being a supporter makes you worse. What puzzles, and confuses, me is living where war is is equivalent to economical power.

I think it is not that Saddam should not be going to hell. It is that this war don't needed to be, that it's been based on bold lies and misconceptions - on all sides. It is because it will make everything worse. It is because it was brought to us by some rightist politicians who publically dream of a new order, the survival of the fittest, a new, proper U.S. society, a world dominated by the U.S., while their own economy is constantly going down the drain.

The only ones that will really have lost this war in the end will be the U.S and their society. The Eurpean Union, Russia, China will gain more economical power through this war, since it will have a deep negative impact on the U.S. economy. So what confuses me is, that from the point where you live you should be against this war and I should support it. But I won't

Peace to you!

[atom_b]

...that was me - had my cookies deleted.

[cperezzz]

they captured him a while back