i've been trying to get two laptops to sync perfectly using the MTC sync feature in live.
the problem is that all the interfaces i've tried seem to have pretty sloppy MTC and whoever is set to receive sync is constantly displaying a shifting tempo, making re-pitch'd sample playback completely warbly and horrible sounding.
i also thought just hitting play simultaneously on both machines would sync them as long as they were at the same tempo to begin with, but that doesn't seem to work either. they drift in tempo over time.
all of this is really frustrating if you want really accurate (tempo wise anyway) playback of samples.
has anyone figure out how to make this work well?
perfect sync w/two laptops - is it possible?
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Alex Reynolds
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2002 5:48 am
- Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
- Contact:
The clock within Live does not work well either between applications on the same host or between two hosts over MIDI. Symptoms have been drift or 3/4ths of bpm shared to other hosts, among other problems.
It seems that it is necessary to use a hardware clock or a clock from a sequencer (e.g., Logic) to synchronize applications and hosts.
-Alex
It seems that it is necessary to use a hardware clock or a clock from a sequencer (e.g., Logic) to synchronize applications and hosts.
-Alex
"The clock within Live does not work well either between applications on the same host or between two hosts over MIDI."
Yeah, apparently not. My symptoms using Midi Time Code are very warbly playback when using re-pitch, the only good sounding clip playback mode. Unfortunately Beat mode sounds bad synced or unsynced, so I'd really rather not use it.
So you're saying that using Midi Timecode actually works well? And does this mean that you need to bring an additional PC around with you to gigs?
Yeah, apparently not. My symptoms using Midi Time Code are very warbly playback when using re-pitch, the only good sounding clip playback mode. Unfortunately Beat mode sounds bad synced or unsynced, so I'd really rather not use it.
So you're saying that using Midi Timecode actually works well? And does this mean that you need to bring an additional PC around with you to gigs?
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Alex Reynolds
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2002 5:48 am
- Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
- Contact:
Some software sequencers have clocks in them, such as Logic. You can export this clock on a MIDI channel and then bring that back into Live as its clock input preference -- on the same host. You can also export the clock from one host to a MIDI controller that is connected to another host, to sync multiple hosts. Or you can use a hardware clock (MOTU Timepiece, etc.) to sync multiple hosts.
-Alex
-Alex
Don't mix up MIDI Clock and MTC - these are entirely different protocols and concepts. Clock essentially is the MIDI equivalent of the 24 pulses per quarter note sync signal between pre-MIDI hardware sequencers.
MTC is essentially SMPTE over MIDI, that is, a absolute time format, and relating absolute time to musical time must be done in each application or device individually - where you will usually encounter different rounding and approximation effects leading to drift. Besides, MTC puts rather high load on the MIDI cable, and may get warbly if you mix it with note and controller signals.
That is, using MTC to sync two music applications or devices is a bad idea. MTC is only good for syncing the one master sequencer in your rig to a linear recorder (tape, video, ADAT) - for handing down timing information between musical gear and software, you'll have to use MIDI Clock.
As to MIDI Clock sync in Live: It was broken in 2.02, and can be less than satisfying when routed within one computer, but otherwise it has always worked perfectly fine for me. I've done extended livesets with Live 1.5, 2.01 and recently 2.03 both as Clock slave and master to my other gear (MPC, Nord Modular).I haven't tried a setup with two computers yet, but as Live works as slave and master to my hardware, there is no real reason why it should fail on a computer->computer link...
Sevo
MTC is essentially SMPTE over MIDI, that is, a absolute time format, and relating absolute time to musical time must be done in each application or device individually - where you will usually encounter different rounding and approximation effects leading to drift. Besides, MTC puts rather high load on the MIDI cable, and may get warbly if you mix it with note and controller signals.
That is, using MTC to sync two music applications or devices is a bad idea. MTC is only good for syncing the one master sequencer in your rig to a linear recorder (tape, video, ADAT) - for handing down timing information between musical gear and software, you'll have to use MIDI Clock.
As to MIDI Clock sync in Live: It was broken in 2.02, and can be less than satisfying when routed within one computer, but otherwise it has always worked perfectly fine for me. I've done extended livesets with Live 1.5, 2.01 and recently 2.03 both as Clock slave and master to my other gear (MPC, Nord Modular).I haven't tried a setup with two computers yet, but as Live works as slave and master to my hardware, there is no real reason why it should fail on a computer->computer link...
Sevo
so, the difference between laptop<->hardware midi clock and laptop<->laptop may be that there is more inherent jitter in a laptop only situation where midi timing isn't guaranteed to be clockwise accurate.
my problem stems from wanting to use re-pitch mode..
my specific problem is that with two laptops there is always some amount of midi clock jitter (you can watch the tempo value on the slave go up and down pretty often) which affects re-pitch mode horribly and beat mode very minimally. so you can perform in beat mode, but not in re-pitch mode, which would be much better for me since it sounds much much better, imho. reptich mode literally sounds like there's an lfo attached to the pitch playback of the sample... totally warbled.
what really kinda blows is that all this would be unneeded with laptops if you just match up at the beginning of the set with tempo and let go. i mean, you start both machines out at 130bpm and they should stay that way for a long time, right? wrong. they drift within minutes.
so an even bigger question is... why do two machines with gigahertz clock timing drift at a 130bpm, a much lower clock resolution? so weird... i mean clocks on two different machines, like the ones you tell time on, stay in sync for much longer. an y ideas?
my problem stems from wanting to use re-pitch mode..
well, i'm not sure how many people would agree with me, but i think ableton's 'beat' mode sounds pretty bad in a large variety of contexts. for beats it can sometimes be passable, but for real pitched stuff, especially when you enter the territory of pads and ambiences, it starts to fall apart sonically.Anonymous wrote:what are your clips of that they only sound good in repitch mode?
my specific problem is that with two laptops there is always some amount of midi clock jitter (you can watch the tempo value on the slave go up and down pretty often) which affects re-pitch mode horribly and beat mode very minimally. so you can perform in beat mode, but not in re-pitch mode, which would be much better for me since it sounds much much better, imho. reptich mode literally sounds like there's an lfo attached to the pitch playback of the sample... totally warbled.
what really kinda blows is that all this would be unneeded with laptops if you just match up at the beginning of the set with tempo and let go. i mean, you start both machines out at 130bpm and they should stay that way for a long time, right? wrong. they drift within minutes.
so an even bigger question is... why do two machines with gigahertz clock timing drift at a 130bpm, a much lower clock resolution? so weird... i mean clocks on two different machines, like the ones you tell time on, stay in sync for much longer. an y ideas?
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normal0c
Tempo changes
What complicates this issue is changing tempo mid-song. I like automating tempo changes in Live, so naturally Live would have to be the device sending out the time code to the 2nd laptop (not a hardware device, and not a different internal device, like Logic).
Anyway, to clarify: Are you saying that the following configuration causes it to warble?
Laptop1
MIDI Sync Output Device -> (midi output)
Laptop2
MIDI Sync Input Device -> (midi input)
Anyway, to clarify: Are you saying that the following configuration causes it to warble?
Laptop1
MIDI Sync Output Device -> (midi output)
Laptop2
MIDI Sync Input Device -> (midi input)
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Triumph
I like this idea....
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=951
jory says:
"slave both Laptops to an external hardware device that is running a MidiThru box that splits the midi signal to the two laptops... This is nice because these devices will often have tap tempo..."
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=951
jory says:
"slave both Laptops to an external hardware device that is running a MidiThru box that splits the midi signal to the two laptops... This is nice because these devices will often have tap tempo..."