Uhh, there are some problems here.....

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
longjohns
Posts: 9088
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:42 pm
Location: seattle

Post by longjohns » Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:44 pm

yes, this is confusing

another thing to try is to turn off warp and use a follow action to do the "looping"

??

CloudyJim
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:32 pm

Post by CloudyJim » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:37 pm

nebulae wrote:Given the number of back and forth on this thread, it might it be useful if CloudyJim would provide an audio sample of the guitar lick (so we can hear the problem) as well as a screenshot of the recorded clip warped the way you have it warped. As you can see, there's lots of people eager to help :) and there has got to be a solution, because if looped correctly, you should not lose the first transient of your clip at all.
I have the demo, so I can't get you a sound file. I'll try tonight to get a screenshot, but I may not be able to do anything else until Wednesday.

I know this will work properly, there is just something I am missing. After all, this is loop-based software.

EDIT: this is a good example of the type of loop I will be building. I posted this in the other thread.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemus ... dID=447278

listen to the flamenco rumba rhythm guitar. It's in 4/4 and I play the root note of the chord on the 1 beat and the others fall in place around the 2,3 and 4 beats. In theory it's simple, but when I recorded a similar pattern in Live, the audio on the 1 beat came out sounding partial. So, I moved the marker to the left just a little bit, then I moved the ending marker in a similar fashion. The outcome was a strange sound, like it was "warped". :wink:

It left me wanting to avoid warping and move the whole clip in relation to the markers. Is there a way to move all the markers symettrically so all of the markers stay the same in relation to one another?
Last edited by CloudyJim on Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Machinate
Posts: 11646
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:15 pm
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Post by Machinate » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:39 pm

you can just sample the loop you've made, even in the demo version.
mbp 2.66, osx 10.6.8, 8GB ram.

nebulae
Posts: 15707
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:16 am
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Post by nebulae » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:42 pm

Agreed with Machinate. It's critical for us to hear what you hear, so create a new track and use Resample as your input and record your guitar sound. The recorded file can be then compressed to MP3 using a variety of tools, and then posted to us.

CloudyJim
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:32 pm

Post by CloudyJim » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:58 pm

nebulae wrote:Agreed with Machinate. It's critical for us to hear what you hear, so create a new track and use Resample as your input and record your guitar sound. The recorded file can be then compressed to MP3 using a variety of tools, and then posted to us.
Maybe this will be easier if you can tell me how you would go about starting a project from scratch in the session view. The first track to be recorded will be the rhythm guitar. It will be recorded with the metronome on. You will play however many cycles of the 4/4 rhythm as it takes to get in the groove. Then you want to listen to it and find the best cycle and create a loop out of it.

What would you do? Feel free to tell me if there is a better way to do this as well, I am not implying that my newbie methodologies are superior.

Machinate
Posts: 11646
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:15 pm
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Post by Machinate » Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:05 pm

aw man, you're saying that we've had two whole pages of trying to help you for nothing?

The way you're working it sounds like you might as well record the whole thing in arrange view, if you ask me.
mbp 2.66, osx 10.6.8, 8GB ram.

CloudyJim
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:32 pm

Post by CloudyJim » Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:13 pm

Machinete, I'm not a retard, just a perfectionist.

This guy seems to have it sounding fine.

http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/pub/a/o ... intro.html

Funny, he is doing it exactly like I did. Maybe there's not a problem with Live. Maybe my playing is the problem.

Machinate
Posts: 11646
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:15 pm
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Post by Machinate » Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:16 pm

I would never suggest that you were a retard, it's just a bit frustrating to not get closure on this ;-)
mbp 2.66, osx 10.6.8, 8GB ram.

nebulae
Posts: 15707
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:16 am
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Post by nebulae » Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:28 pm

Machinate wrote:aw man, you're saying that we've had two whole pages of trying to help you for nothing?

The way you're working it sounds like you might as well record the whole thing in arrange view, if you ask me.
I already advised him that if he wants to do it Arrangement style then he might want to stick with something he's already familiar with like Sonar.

Jim, what you are trying to do is doable in either the Session or Arrange view, but I'd recommend using the Session view. Just hit record in a clip slot and record to the click track. Record your strum pattern as many times as you'd like until you feel like you got one right and then hit the stop button. Double-click on the clip itself to go to the clip properties where you can set your loop points. Don't worry about warping or any of that stuff yet - just get the loop points right.

So you're clear, the loop points are ABOVE the warp markers and they determine the loop region. The manual clearly shows what these are, in case you don't still know. Next, you can drag you clip start marker to the beginning of the loop point so that the clip plays from the beginning loop point every time. So if' you've got it set up right, when you play the clip, you will be able to start the clip at the loop beginning point and it will loop around to the loop ending point.

Let's get this part right and then we'll move on to to the warping.

Sorry if i sound condescending...I'm just trying to get you to a successful point of the basic functions in Live...not trying to talk down to you, bro.

oldbetseysatan
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:46 am
Location: London

Post by oldbetseysatan » Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:36 pm

CloudyJim,

With all due respect, weren't you just complaining about the limitations of Live Lite demo a few days back and now it turns out you haven't even USED (or at least used it the way it was intended...) the program yet?

It's just a bit, well, you know, kinda like, annoying.

Just to be helpful, and I may be wrong but, I reckon what is happening is that your recording a track, Live is analysing the waveform, putting the initial markers slightly after the first beat (which it DOES seem to do quite regularly and if you'd actually READ anything about Live would have known already...) and then you try an loop this.

Is that right?

Although I have to admit that RARELY do I find this a problem when doing quick loops myself (although the warp markers are slightly out, it still loops pretty much spot on) maybe this is causing your problems.

Just got to the waveform, Ctrl (apple) + A this first marker (to highlight all markers) and shift it to the very top of the 1st transient and THEN loop.

Voila, you should be in loopy heaven.

Now read the manual and get to work, um, Wednesday.

R.
A 'live' musician struggling with technology...

10.5.8, Pro Tools 8.0, Logic 9.0.2, Reason 3.05, Live 8.0.9.

Old Betsey Satan - The Flower Shop 8 Track. "She fought long and she fought hard..."

CloudyJim
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:32 pm

Post by CloudyJim » Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:42 pm

nebulae,

I don't have Live in front of me right now, but what you described is how I did it last night. After I moved the loop markers, I let the loop sit there and repeat. There's a hiccup when the end maker is hit. At first, I thought that I should just record again and be more conscious of my timing, so I did. The outcome was the same. When I zoom in on one of the markers, I see that I need to adjust the marker by very very little to get more or less (depending on which marker) of the waveform in the loop. This is where the problems start.

This is where i started asking about moving the clip in relation to the grid. It seems that in order to get this loop sounding right, I have to play just after the metronome clicks.

Borrowing this image from the O'Reilly tutorial:

http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/images/ ... ig5_sm.jpg

Look at the wave form closely. You can see that his starting marker is cutting off the very first burst of the very first sound recorded. This is what my example would look like if I had posted one. In order to get that few milliseconds into the loop, warping, and the resulting degradation was the only method I could muster.

CloudyJim
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:32 pm

Post by CloudyJim » Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:53 pm

oldbetseysatan wrote:CloudyJim,

With all due respect, weren't you just complaining about the limitations of Live Lite demo a few days back and now it turns out you haven't even USED (or at least used it the way it was intended...) the program yet?

It's just a bit, well, you know, kinda like, annoying.

Just to be helpful, and I may be wrong but, I reckon what is happening is that your recording a track, Live is analysing the waveform, putting the initial markers slightly after the first beat (which it DOES seem to do quite regularly and if you'd actually READ anything about Live would have known already...) and then you try an loop this.

Is that right?
No, I haven't had that happen.

And, for the record, I never complained about Live Lite. The conversation was about which one should I use to demo the product before buying it, Live Lite or Live 5 Demo. I don't think I have complained as of yet. I've just asked questions. Maybe I should use more emoticons. I really do appreciate all the help.

nebulae
Posts: 15707
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:16 am
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Post by nebulae » Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:01 pm

CloudyJim wrote:nebulae,

I don't have Live in front of me right now, but what you described is how I did it last night. After I moved the loop markers, I let the loop sit there and repeat. There's a hiccup when the end maker is hit. At first, I thought that I should just record again and be more conscious of my timing, so I did. The outcome was the same. When I zoom in on one of the markers, I see that I need to adjust the marker by very very little to get more or less (depending on which marker) of the waveform in the loop. This is where the problems start.

This is where i started asking about moving the clip in relation to the grid. It seems that in order to get this loop sounding right, I have to play just after the metronome clicks.

Borrowing this image from the O'Reilly tutorial:

http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/images/ ... ig5_sm.jpg

Look at the wave form closely. You can see that his starting marker is cutting off the very first burst of the very first sound recorded. This is what my example would look like if I had posted one. In order to get that few milliseconds into the loop, warping, and the resulting degradation was the only method I could muster.
Hmm, I don't think I understand the problem well. If you create a clip with say 4 repeats of your strum pattern, and then you set loop points in say the second or third pattern, then it should loop that pattern indefinitely.

The example you show from OReilly is not what I'm talking about. If we use that example, you should be setting your loop points at say the 4th marker to the sixth marker. And you do not have to stick to exactly the marker...meaning you need not assign the loop points quantized. The reason I'd like you to not quantize right now is that I want you to be able to just get the looping right first and foremost. Try that on Wednesday and then let's talk.

Also, you can pick me up on IM via yahoo or AIM or MSN, so I'd be happy to talk you through some of this stuff. Private message me for my contact info.

CloudyJim
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:32 pm

Post by CloudyJim » Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:21 pm

nubelae,

You are right, that image wasn't exactly right. Your description of isolating an interior cycle IS what I have been talking about. However, if the markers were moved to the 4 and 6, part of the note on 4 would be at 3.95 and part of the note on 6 would be at 6.1, creating a hiccup. At least that was my experience.

"And you do not have to stick to exactly the marker...meaning you need not assign the loop points quantized."

Ohhh. This may be what I need to hear. I mentioned that i tried to find a section of the tutorial that explained quantization in-depth and couldn't . I have a feeling this is where the whole problem lies. I tried setting it to 1/4, 1/16, and 1/32 and was never sure what the difference was.

nebulae
Posts: 15707
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:16 am
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Post by nebulae » Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:27 pm

CloudyJim wrote:nubelae,

You are right, that image wasn't exactly right. Your description of isolating an interior cycle IS what I have been talking about. However, if the markers were moved to the 4 and 6, part of the note on 4 would be at 3.95 and part of the note on 6 would be at 6.1, creating a hiccup. At least that was my experience.

"And you do not have to stick to exactly the marker...meaning you need not assign the loop points quantized."

Ohhh. This may be what I need to hear. I mentioned that i tried to find a section of the tutorial that explained quantization in-depth and couldn't . I have a feeling this is where the whole problem lies. I tried setting it to 1/4, 1/16, and 1/32 and was never sure what the difference was.
The quantize is probably what's messing you up. If you set the loop points without snapping to find where you want to loop, you can then adjust the warp markers later so that what you are looping is time synched perfectly to your tempo. But get the loop right first.

Also, as you get the hang of this more and more, warping and looping will become second nature...trust me this gets really really easy.

Post Reply