Cubase SX3 + Live 5: production teqniques

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
supster
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Cubase SX3 + Live 5: production teqniques

Post by supster » Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:10 pm

after resisting this for a long time now ive finally accepted Live is not going to cut it as my only main sequencer anymore.

the problems with the slow arrange grid that gets slower and slower as projects get more complex is impossible to work with - its like quicksand man, the closer you get to completing a track, the harder and harder it gets

also, the sheer amount of broken features and bugs are so annoying and time wasting i cant finish anything without practically beating my brains out.
and i dont expect any significant fixes anytime soon.

so im going to keep using live for most pre-production and sound design, audio editing and loops/variation building ... but do all of my final arrangement, realtime VST, and mixdown in SX3.

this means im not using the Live arrange view for anything but the soundesign really .. *all* audio and MIDI will be transferred over to SX3 for the arrangement .. this means i want to avoid arranging half in Live and half in SX .. i want to ultimately see everything in SX

i know this is getting to be a fairly standard setup (or Logic/Live) for a lot of people so im looking for some workflow pointers (might apply to Logic users too in concept if not details):

- are you rewiring? and if so how is the performance? any nasty timing issues or bugs and if so how do you compensate?

- if rewiring - are you running rewire channels into SX/Logic, then recording the audio into it? or some other procedure?

- if not actively using rewire much (for any reason) ... how are you transferring your audio in an efficent manner over to SX?

ie. what is the quickest way ... the actual process (rendering/resampling into the Live sounds folder ... then importing into cubase pool? some form of drag and drop? what?) ...

- is keeping all of your samples in synch after the transfer a problem

any other pointers would be extremely helpful to myself as well as many others im sure. tia :)
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donnydonny
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Post by donnydonny » Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:50 pm

For all of my music productions, i'm currently doing ALL of my vocal editing in Live, rewiring it into Cubase, and then doing everything else (fx, percussions, synths, bass) in Cubase. If you're going to be recording tracks in Live (when it's not re-wired), it would be best to just re-import them into Cubase or to just record them in Cubase (although you lose the loop flexibility). But yea, that's how I work the Live/Cubase combo. Let me know if you have any problems.
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supster
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Post by supster » Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:05 pm

donnydonny wrote:For all of my music productions, i'm currently doing ALL of my vocal editing in Live, rewiring it into Cubase, and then doing everything else (fx, percussions, synths, bass) in Cubase. If you're going to be recording tracks in Live (when it's not re-wired), it would be best to just re-import them into Cubase or to just record them in Cubase (although you lose the loop flexibility). But yea, that's how I work the Live/Cubase combo. Let me know if you have any problems.
thanks for the reply. sounds like you're maybe doing live band/rock work? and recording a lot of live parts into cubase. because youre approaching it exactly the opposite way

im doing all edm/electronic, so Live works great for most of it. i dont record anything live into it; any guitar work has to be done at another studio because my interface doesnt handle it well.

when you reimport anything into cubase, are you using the pool import function and copying the files in to SX that way? or importing them and leaving them in place (so you dont have multiple copies of everything)
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radeon
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Re: Cubase SX3 + Live 5: production teqniques

Post by radeon » Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:07 pm

supster wrote:after resisting this for a long time now ive finally accepted Live is not going to cut it as my only main sequencer anymore.

the problems with the slow arrange grid that gets slower and slower as projects get more complex is impossible to work with - its like quicksand man, the closer you get to completing a track, the harder and harder it gets

also, the sheer amount of broken features and bugs are so annoying and time wasting i cant finish anything without practically beating my brains out.
and i dont expect any significant fixes anytime soon.
.
I agree so much a lot with you supster. I have a song RIGHT TODAY that will not load up. I click the song file to opens it and get Live quit message. I have to add the individual midi and audio file but I lose all automation and everythings. This happen three time now I dont report to ableton or forum because it is never end cycle and people say it must be doing something wrong myself :x I dont the file wont load and I do nothing to casue it.
ed
it is horriblest experience when work on tracks in arrange when it is busy but its not so busy in other softwares it is only live that makes finishing tracks so imposibble :x It is so easy to get idea up in live but is very difficult to finsih with bugs and bad code. Do you feel dissapoint? I do very much. They take a greatest music software from ver 1-4 and it was great and then 5 :cry:I wish they add some thinks in 4 like pdc so I go back to 4 :idea:
I so do hope they make six bette but dont add requests for things we dont need just so to sell some more copies like aac rex file and others before they fix this versions I feel this is last chance for ableton or they will be only a rewire software for most people and most peoples wanted to use as only softwares like you and me. They become rewire useful only then I leave or go back to use versions 4r

Cache
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Post by Cache » Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:13 pm

i've experimented with various ways of working on this (cubase/nuendo & Live)

I found that Live midi implemention and transport controls are not sufficient for me to get tracks finished. being able to set markers and go back and forth using midi to those markers is fantastic, but i'd still like to see some kind of scrub control - mapped to endless rotary knob in ideal sitiuation.

annyway, i don't like to use rewire because i need to increase my audio buffer to 1024 (from standard of 256).
using rewire at 256 samples gives me pops and clicks.
1024 is better.
This method is OK. but still feels a little cumbersome.

the BEST method i found is this:

YOu need two machines (eg studio machine+ your live rig running Live)
I networked the two machines using crossover cable and would do the main sequencing in SX. I would use Live to play various audio + or vsts in sync with the main PC (just used ear to sync up) Then when i wanted to use something from Live, i would bounce to audio and the save directory was a shared folder on the main PC.

Then on the main PC, i would just import the audio from the shared folder.

I found this to be a very powerful method of working.

Syncing using MIDI is a little awkward because your slave cannot start on its own....i found it more flexible to be able to start Live whenever i wanted without being tied to a master.

Man, the midi control in Cubase/Nuendo is such a pain in the rocks to set up. takes so long to set up everything. compare that to the rightclick-midi learn standard modern method.....gaaaaaaaaah.

anyway, thats the best way of using Steinbert+Live i found. let me know if you want to know more.....

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radeon
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Post by radeon » Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:16 pm

Supster i like cubase sx so this is not to try and get you buy something else I just wants to say pro tool le has greatets rewire system. You say you make all sound in ableton as rewire so I tell you honest that Pro tool le would be great for you. To treat it as your multitrack recorder. Audie editing is the best and the mixing with pro tools feels great. I buy a control 24 to go with my le and it is WOW. I buy it so cheap for 1500 euro the man needed money fast :wink: you dont need a controler I just mention. I use also sx3 and logic. Dont go to Logic it has bad reqire not logical. Cubase would be better choices. Try and use le I thinks you will like it with live. simple to use and fast to use also :)

donnydonny
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Post by donnydonny » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:35 pm

supster wrote:
donnydonny wrote:For all of my music productions, i'm currently doing ALL of my vocal editing in Live, rewiring it into Cubase, and then doing everything else (fx, percussions, synths, bass) in Cubase. If you're going to be recording tracks in Live (when it's not re-wired), it would be best to just re-import them into Cubase or to just record them in Cubase (although you lose the loop flexibility). But yea, that's how I work the Live/Cubase combo. Let me know if you have any problems.
thanks for the reply. sounds like you're maybe doing live band/rock work? and recording a lot of live parts into cubase. because youre approaching it exactly the opposite way

im doing all edm/electronic, so Live works great for most of it. i dont record anything live into it; any guitar work has to be done at another studio because my interface doesnt handle it well.

when you reimport anything into cubase, are you using the pool import function and copying the files in to SX that way? or importing them and leaving them in place (so you dont have multiple copies of everything)
.
actually, i too am doing electronic music. almost strictly electronic music.

when i record stuff in live or pro tools... i'll move the file over to the cubase audio folder and then import it without copying. so essentially, it ends up that you're "importing them and leaving them in place".
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Post by djadonis206 » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:48 pm

rewire ableton into cubase

or PT 7 - yes Pro-Tools pretty similar to Cubase (IMO - don't you hate that you have to say that all the time IMO IMHO blah blah blah)

but anywayz - rewire

however, Live's pretty dope

what kind of computer are you running? Specs?

I'm not really experiencing the bad screen redraws and whatnot since I got a faster computer

Instead of switching sequencers what about a juiced up computer?

a
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supster
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Re: Cubase SX3 + Live 5: production teqniques

Post by supster » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:08 pm

radeon wrote: Do you feel dissapoint? I do very much. They take a greatest music software from ver 1-4 and it was great and then 5 :cry:

well ..

i have a good year and a half invested in using live for everything; then another year before that screwing around with the pre-MID versions. countless hours of teqniques and methods of doings, plenty of them i developed on my own along the way.

i know im no ultimate guru compared to some of the people i know of on this forum alone, but for the kind of stuff im doing? i know it way better than just adequate and that represents more time and effort than i can even say.

if the software worked even close to what it should be, i would be cranking out finished product fast. whether or not anybody else thinks its 'good' is beside the point; i would be getting it done to my satisfaction .. and just about nothing would be more gratifying to me at this point

unfortunately it doesnt work for some of the most fundamental tasks - and ive thrown my .02 cents in on here, giving feedback where i can, hopefully postitive or valuable where possible, worked my *ass* off on my end short of investing hundreds or thousands into new gear that might not even fix the problems.

and although ive definitely been pretty blunt about some things none of it has been drama queen shit or abusive ... considering the headaches ive been way beyond patient ..

but ... i have been so pissed off lately i started getting depressed about it this week. friend of mine gave me a pep talk and she convinced me (what i already knew) ... i have to adapt again, and take the plunge to bring a whole additional set of teqniques with more software and configuration and reading manuals to do things i really was dreading and trying to avoid doing.

yeah: its pretty hardcore having to do this but sometimes in life you have to just regroup and put things behind you. im looking into a better solution now but im taking a couple of weeks sabbatical just to work on my attitude and come back fresh when i start doing all this

i do think more than a few of the ableton guys know that behind the bug reports and complaints theres a lot of heart and frustration. at least i hope so,

maybe that will motivate them even more to get this stuff together. its not just some toy plane that doesnt fly; its a whole mindset and way of working for the *music*.

anoymous words on a forum dont do it justice bro. its no joke.

but thats enough sharing with the group ;) onto the next thing ...
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Last edited by supster on Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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supster
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Post by supster » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:16 pm

Cache wrote: annyway, i don't like to use rewire because i need to increase my audio buffer to 1024 (from standard of 256).
using rewire at 256 samples gives me pops and clicks.
1024 is better.
thats ok, i generally run at 768 or so anyway so we'll see how the rewire performs with SX. i'll do some tests

I networked the two machines using crossover cable and would do the main sequencing in SX. I would use Live to play various audio + or vsts in sync with the main PC (just used ear to sync up) Then when i wanted to use something from Live, i would bounce to audio and the save directory was a shared folder on the main PC.
thats interesting - im not following you on 'using your ear to synch up' - are you running all your crucial drum parts on SX on the one machine then firing more 'loose' samples and accapellas on the LIve box? because i cant imagine it being even remotely timed right otherwise

?
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supster
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Post by supster » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:54 pm

PT 7 - yes Pro-Tools pretty similar to Cubase
i already own SX3 and worked with it some a couple of years ago; i know its capable enough of doing what i need it to so thats the pluses there.

minuses for me are the way it handles windows still (they doggedly minimize and change your workspace) and i think the audio editing could still be more intuitive than it is.

a couple of friends of mine swear (absolutely worship) PT audio editing.
and thats the main thing i need to to be able to do: sequence arrangement
of audio efficiently (fast) for the final song structure and tweaks.

still researching ..
what kind of computer are you running? Specs?
Instead of switching sequencers what about a juiced up computer?
ack - well nobody follows anyone elses whole story all that much, so to me its running over the same ground over and over spelling it out .. but for the record:

XP2 - athlon 2600 (2.2 ghz) - 1Gb - via chipset - m-audio 24/96 pci - 2 x 7200 rpm internal hdd - radean 9600 .. xp optimized for audio, killed all non-essentials, latest drivers, no running viruscan etc etc ..

follow this forum every day like the bible for at least a year or more now, followed every relevant thread, started my own threads, made bug reports, worked with other users on the side, tried every troubleshooting route and workaround anybody even remotely suggested and then some.

not going down that road anymore :) waste of time at this point, my machine is more than above minimum specs and i do believe the ball is firmly in abletons court:

- verified long term issue with arrange grid lockups and slowdowns - also session grid with copying/duplicating scenes - at low resource usage (since vs 2) - way too hi majority of users to be merely 'user error' or something obvious. weve finally had feedback that they are aware of this, but no promises other than they will try

- unreasonable random glitching and audio errors at low (50%) resouce usage. no progress

- so many features that are broken or half assed working it gives me a headache and dont want to type them all out ... one day soon i will make a complete list, post it, submit or resubmit formal bug reports

these are the main things. then theres the mystifying decisions that have been made with functionality recently on top of it .. i dont have the ready cash to do my next hw upgrade and shouldnt have to with what i have.

thats where im at
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nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:15 am

supster, I think you have very valid points and I don't think you need to "justify" yourself any further. If you feel it's time to add new tools, by all means. At least you're not giving up on Live. And there's no rule that says you have to stick to any one thing. SX has a lot of powerful features. You might also consider Sonar as it has a lot of loop features, and Sonar 5 is getting tons of raves. I've used both in the past and have equal levels of success.

Just keep Live around to just play...the one thing that Live can always do is just release your creativity in ways that a linear sequencer just can't. If you need to use it as a sketchpad until the bugs you experience are worked out, that's a perfectly valid approach. Whatever it takes to not get bogged down/depressed ...just keep making the tunes.

As for workflow tips, I find that if I do need to go to a linear sequencer, I always keep seperate folders for my Live projects and my other sequencer projects. I'll always use the other sequencer's import feature to bring files into a new project, thereby allowing me to make edits and move forward. If I ever need to go back, I've got the originals, whether I'm in Live or some other sequencer. This is especially important for any editing of vocals or other non-sequenced instruments. Hell, even midi instruments need error correction most of the time for percussive sounds. Anyways, if you need more tips, send me a PM.

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Post by Cache » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:58 am

by using my ear - i just hit the space bar on live so that it is in time with the main sequencer (eg cubase)

of course your bpms are going to be the same and as long as you hit start on the beat they stay in sync easy.
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Post by amo » Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:03 am

supster wrote:
i already own SX3 and worked with it some a couple of years ago
:D Supster, you were early in time then !

Joke appart, I would tend to agree with your friends for PT being the best beast for audio editing on the market. Well, in fact, I did agree.
Now I really believe that cubase made a jump with the SX version. Only to notice how many Pro Tools keyboard shortcuts and techniques they adopted. Plus I find cubase still much more musical program, allows you to automate parameters faster, and much better use of MIDI if any need.
Still a complicated beast that never allowed me to make music for my own pleasure (though it did for professionnal appointments).

I think the reason why Pro Tools is still on top for editing relies in its waveform. As silly as it sounds, it is the best out there. I still use it on a daily basis for hardcore radio editing, like polishing pops and cracks, mixing music together with words etc... plus it has the "shuffle" mode that sticks audio together whatever part you cut in the middle of it, but THAT is not needed musically (in general), plus I discovered cubase is now able of it (after years of use !)

So I believe you'll be good with your combination for now, and that's only an opinion. I just wanted to try to shed some light on the Pro Tools/Cubase thing.

Take care, and I hope Live fullfills your needs in the future,

amo
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supster
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Post by supster » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:43 am

amo wrote:
supster wrote:
i already own SX3 and worked with it some a couple of years ago
:D Supster, you were early in time then !

:lol: yes, i can really be an "early adopter" at times for sure :P you know what i mean ..

thanks for the input on the audio editing and especially the parameters (which i dont know that much about in PT).
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