achieving some sort of stereo separation effect

even · Post by **even** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:21 pm

can autopanner do this? i mean i'm after having the same sound left and right. i've tried having 2 tracks one panned hard to the left and the other to the right.

there's a similar thread over at kvr, with some nifty suggestions but i'm interested if autopanner can do this somehow

DeadlyKungFu · Post by **DeadlyKungFu** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:07 am

of course.

I assume you have neither live nor the manual?

Imagine taking one mono clip and sending it to two different sends, each with autopan, each autopan set to different rates.

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:21 am

i use mdaStereo plugin a lot to get a spreading effect

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:25 am

why not use a Utility and pop one side out of phase, that's pretty wide.

if you say "what is a Utility" we will all laugh at you, you know that dont you?

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:51 am

i did that once on a record and have really regretted it ever since. "wow i can hit the mono switch on my stereo and the sound disappears, cool" eventually giving way to "dang, this sounds pretty crappy on a lot of stereos"

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:12 am

good point.

Actually, I tend to mix a lot with a utility on the master, not to go 'wide stereo' , but to put it in mono just to take a listen to the mix that way, to check it out.
Some engineers go to one speaker in addition to this.

Back on topic : The other way of doing the 'wide stereo' is short delays of course, unfortunately the live "simple delay" won't let you have one side dry and the other at 20 ms.
I built myself a little 'Early reflections' plugin to create close spaces, essentially a set of very short pan-able delays with a filter on each. Makes a nice natural space for a track in the mix - without resorting to reverb which often dont have very good early reflection control..

I'm looking to make a rough and ready binaural panning and distance sim next

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:18 am

Try putting a Simple Delay on the track. Hit both SYNC buttons so that they are red. Adjust the left and right delay times to taste. Try 1ms on once side and 20ms on the other. Using this technique you can create some interesting stereo effects.

even · Post by **even** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:27 am

DeadlyKungFu wrote:I assume you have neither live nor the manual?

i actually have both.

for some 2 years now.

but i made a habit of never reading more than a page out of any manual. i'm kind of an illiterate.

thx for your replies btw

spiderprod · Post by **spiderprod** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:10 pm

try a comb filter .

tomperson · Post by **tomperson** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:23 pm

Angstrom wrote:good point.

Actually, I tend to mix a lot with a utility on the master, not to go 'wide stereo' , but to put it in mono just to take a listen to the mix that way, to check it out.
Some engineers go to one speaker in addition to this.

Interestingly enough, my audio course professor was totally against mono compatibility. He said "I don't mix for monkeys. I want to use all the possibilities at hand without limitations, i use full range, and full stereo spectrum, if the client needs a mono mix, all right, I do a completely new MONO mix".

I have to say i kinda agree with that, at least in the spirit of what he says. Most music won't ever be heard mono, don't you think? Of course, in electronic music the history is different, given that many club soundsystems are mono...

What's your view regarding this...

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:54 pm

well, I didn't bother for years - but I read about this again last year in "The Mixing Engineer's Handbook" by Bobby Owsinski. Where he interviews a few big name mix engineers, they use to alert them of any phase issues in drum miking, any stereo channels that have one side accidentally flipped, any accidental phase issues that have occured which will annoy the mastering engineer so much that he can't function. Also of course ... to make sure that people listening on single speaker radios / alarm clocks don't get a 'different version'.

The most interesting reason to me is to give you a new perspective on the mix.
Try it, stick the whole thing in mono and listen to the relative balances, it will be affected by phase issues of course, but it also gives you an interesting overview. You can suddenly hear that certain things aren't punching their weight, or things that are over dominant. You can tinker around and when you flip it back to stereo after working in mono you can sometimes suddenly glimpse the problem better.

One or two engineers in that book suggest using this to 'find a hole' for elements in panning (!) yep, use a mono mix to determine the correct place to pan a track in the stereo space. I'm not so sure about that, but I do use it to get fresh ears on a mix like I said.

tomperson · Post by **tomperson** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:58 pm

Well, for multiple instruments/drum miking/mixing it's a must. You have the same drum kit miked with several mics, each getting the sound with different phase, so it's really easy to get a situation where the overheads conflict with the bass drum mic or whatever. A common technique there is to flip the phase of the different mics and see where you get the "sweet spot" where the sounds add up...otherwise you could get a really thin sounding drumkit (or stereo guitar or whatever)

But in a totally mix coming from totally digital sources, I think the concept changes a little, you probably won't have the same audio source several times but with different phase (unless, of course you added some FX, in that case, you wouldn't want to fix it, would you?). And I guess that with some common sense and judicious use of eq you can more or less "isolate" all instruments so that they don't conflict with one another.

Anyway, as you said, it gives a new aspect of the sound of your music. And nevertheless, for electronica unfortunately we still have to do "backward compatibility" check for mono sound systems.

Anyway, my world is stereo. And I wish it was 5.1, so my goal is to get a good stereo mix, and mono compatibility is secondary to me.

DeadlyKungFu · Post by **DeadlyKungFu** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:48 pm

and yet Brian Wilson was deaf in one ear and produced some of the most forward thinking music of his time. Pet Sounds is still an amazing album. Bob Dylan said that Brian should donate his ear to the Smithsonian museum.

tomperson · Post by **tomperson** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:27 pm

To each his own I guess. I prefer my two ears and stereo world. With full respect to Brian Wilson, who i happen not to know.

Nod · Post by **Nod** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:27 pm

Tho' you can use a Utility to 'widen' a track there are other plugs that can also prove useful. Free too:

Betabugs Wide Bug - stereo widener/enhancer
OtiumFX Basslane - 'monos' frequencies below a controllable HP filter. Well handy if you've lots of big stereo pads, guitars etc.
Elemental Audio Inspector - excellent peak, RMS and phase metering tool.

You've always got to be careful not to overdo it - especially if your panning skills ain't up to much and your using hard left/rights in a mix. Widening it further is merely putting stuff out of phase.