OT: Warning very f'd up.

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kramer
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Re: OT: Warning very f'd up.

Post by kramer » Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:46 pm

LOFA wrote:Trent Reznor somehow got some footage of the dog cat fur trade in china. This is about the most f'd up thing I have seen in a while.

http://us.video.aol.com/video.index.adp ... id=1457377
You expect me to pleasure myself to that ????
You're sick! :(

clipperer
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Post by clipperer » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:31 pm

im veg, dont eat animals/fish , no eggs or milk or cheese or anything like that, i dont wear leather or any other animal skin, and thats the way i exist here, i would never understand how can you take somebodys life, how can you say "its your pet", life cant be somebodys except the creature whos life it is, reminds me of slaves and masters some thousands years ago, maybe that time aint over.
people are so stupid so stupid so stupid. so stupid. so blind and ignorant, so egoistic. ssomes say for excuse that their whole life they ate meat and now they cant get over it, somes say theyre too weak. but i cant find any difficulties in it. its like breathing i just dont eat animals i cant be without all that i dont need to wear 1000$ crocodile leather shoes, i can be a great bum. to hell with it all, no need at all.

forge
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Post by forge » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:34 pm

tomperson wrote:
MrYellow wrote:
(yes Mr. Yellow, I think much less of you now- I don't see any cats driving
around in SUV's, building urban sprawl, posting useless...)
Yeah np mate..... u gotta understand I'm aussie tho.....

Out in the desert, rainforests and wetlands, SUVs and buildings aren't
our problem. Cats have driven countless native Australian species to
extinction. They have spread all across the country into some of the most
inhospitable places. They have totally destroyed whole ecosystems.
Humans fault sure, for keeping them as pets, but such horrible, horrible
pets they are. Hence keeping them as a pet is one of the most
environmentally destructive things a human can do, especially in Australia
where our wildlife has never had to evolve to deal with such a predator.

It's easy for a cat lover to think i'm callous.... But if you actually look at
what I'm saying.... I'm all for protection of some of the most unique wildlife
in the world.

-Ben
What a stupid thing to say. So, it's cat's fault that some stupid lad a hundred years ago brought them to an ecosystem that doesn't have cats between it's natural wildlife? It's like dropping a lion on a school and blaming the "sadistic" lion for killing the kids. Think.
erm..no it's not the same at all and he has a point, and I grew up always with cats and am very fond of them as 1st choice of pet but there's no way I'd have one here in Oz for the reasons Mr Yellow just stated. I'm not saying it justifies the fur traders behaviour, but like I was saying before, the Battery hens are copping it FAR, FAR worse and most people couldnt give a crap because they're not normal pets - so what do we do defend cat's rights at the expense of native wildlife that ONLY exists here? the debate could go round in circles....

LOFA: I hear what you're saying, but personally I dont feel that guilt that I should be vegan - I do make apoint of buying free range eggs etc but I guess this is where we're lucky "down under" in that there is alot of space so I dont think the cattle and sheep get it so bad - although I'm probably being naive.

In reality we are omnivores, I guess modern man has the choice, but we also have the right to eat meat without feeling bad because it is natural for us to do so.

What is not natural is keeping the animals in cruel and inhumane conditions during their lives and maybe if people like your self rather than opting out and going vegan, instead put your money into supporting alternative ways of farming - in other words being another in the many who are boycotting cruel products and supporting the better ones then there would be more chance of this changing.

It's perhaps somewhat ironically EXACTLY people like you who actually care enough to want go vegan that helps prevent the meat industry etc from changing because you're completely opting out of it so your dollar no longer has a part in shaping that market!

Demand always drives the marketplace and at the moment it looks like people en masse prefer to pay less than care about animal welfare, so that's what drives the market - keeping it cheap as possible, usually at the expense of the animal.

Like the Chinese fur trader's response "if the west stopped supporting it we'd stop doing it" - there has to be a demand and that is what has to change because there will always be unscrupulous people who provide the supply by questionable methods!

something to think about anyway :wink:

kennerb
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Post by kennerb » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:07 pm

I've always found it interesting to here "ethical" vegetarians talk about not taking life, wearing leather, only buying the right lipstick, etc, etc.

If your into it for health reasons fine. If you do not want to support the industrialized meat industry, great Even better.

What I don't get though is how people so ethical can draw a line as to what "sentient" or "concious" life is. From my perspective Life is life.

Who are we to say that just because something has eyes and fur and other features like us that it has more "value" in the world. I think that is a self centered view because we identify with animals more than other life forms. Alll life is sacred. Who's to say that much of the rest of the world that we don't identify with ie, plants. sea creatures, other multi celled organisms don't have the same capacities for feeling as mammals but in a way that we don't understand.

If you are alive, eat, and breathe then you are having a destructive affect on life around you. period. We can't stop that. What we can control is how conscientious we are in our treatment of the world around us. I personally give thanks to everything that I eat. I have stopped it's cycle of life here be it cabbage or chicken. I need to respect that.

Cruelty on every front whether it's to other humans, whole forests, or animals is unconscionable
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err_fatale
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Post by err_fatale » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:11 pm

vegans are more advanced than carnivores

kennerb
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Post by kennerb » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:17 pm

err_fatale wrote:vegans are more advanced than carnivores
but their farts smell worse!
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leonard
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Post by leonard » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:05 pm

err_fatale wrote:vegans are more advanced than carnivores
care to elaborate, mate?

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:18 am

forge wrote:What is not natural is keeping the animals in cruel and inhumane conditions during their lives and maybe if people like your self rather than opting out and going vegan, instead put your money into supporting alternative ways of farming - in other words being another in the many who are boycotting cruel products and supporting the better ones then there would be more chance of this changing.
Why do you think that? If I don't support ANY form of animal products from being produced, then I do more than just go for the "better" ones. Free range meat can also become subject to abuse, if I just don't support the industry at all, I get better vegan options.
Personally I don't see the point in arguing it, hopefully at some point in the history of man we decide to eat healthy and stop using animals for food, but in the mean time I'll just do my part, which to me is to not partake.

henry ford
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Post by henry ford » Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:44 am

kennerb wrote:I've always found it interesting to here "ethical" vegetarians talk about not taking life, wearing leather, only buying the right lipstick, etc, etc.

If your into it for health reasons fine. If you do not want to support the industrialized meat industry, great Even better.

What I don't get though is how people so ethical can draw a line as to what "sentient" or "concious" life is. From my perspective Life is life.

Who are we to say that just because something has eyes and fur and other features like us that it has more "value" in the world. I think that is a self centered view because we identify with animals more than other life forms. Alll life is sacred. Who's to say that much of the rest of the world that we don't identify with ie, plants. sea creatures, other multi celled organisms don't have the same capacities for feeling as mammals but in a way that we don't understand.

If you are alive, eat, and breathe then you are having a destructive affect on life around you. period. We can't stop that. What we can control is how conscientious we are in our treatment of the world around us. I personally give thanks to everything that I eat. I have stopped it's cycle of life here be it cabbage or chicken. I need to respect that.

Cruelty on every front whether it's to other humans, whole forests, or animals is unconscionable
excellent points, I've felt like this for a long time. But I've also experienced the death of previous egos several times, and I've had psychedelic experiences. So it has become obvious to me, more so than simply discovering it through perserverance. Life feeds on life, a tomatoe is as alive as you or me...sure, we as humans can alter our surroundings more - does that make us a higher being? (anticipating the 'yes' responses) , but as we live life its all just experience. we have five senses, and for the most part our whole understanding on life is based on how these five senses receive transmissions. a paraplegic deaf and dumb mute, is as valid as the most able bodied amongst us. his or her experience and understanding might fail to be communicated to us, or it might fail to manifest in a way obvious to others...but it is still most certainly real. Ultimately, and conciously, if you are to eat meat...you should cultivate it yourself. you should rear and take care of the cow, provide it with a quality of life so that you can consciously feed from it. You must do the same for fruit and veg. you should keep the earth in good health. Man, and the over-population of man....makes for a most un-natural situation where everything is treated wrong. the sickening treatment of chickens for example, and cows, and the genetic modification of fruit and veg.....its all the by-product of capitalism and over population. It will be our downfall. we have bird flu as a looming (perhaps its a tabloids wet dream?...) threat, we have made cow disease (from unethical and un-natural practices) we also have the damage to the atmosphere from farming cows (who fart methane) so intesively.....

its a debate that transcends arm-chair philosophy as it is having a very real and drastic effect on the world, and the human individuals who keep filling it. ........my opinion on the matter , is if you are going to eat meat you should have a farm...or a community farm...and feed of what you cultivate, and treat with respect - for ALL life.......fruit veg 'animal' and mother earth.

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Post by Anubis » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:01 am

that peta vid was pretty hard to watch. 8O to think it's all driven by 'glamour'... pretty sick
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MrYellow
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Post by MrYellow » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:06 am

Everyone should build their own CPUs using renewable home-made
materials such as their own poop.

You need at least 10,000 people doing specialised jobs (such as pottery,
hunting, farming, CPU building) and trading together before a community
can get away from hunter gatherer status. To say that we should all grow
our own food neglects the last million years.

Sure it would be good if infant mortality rate was 80% and we all had to
spend 60 hours a week trying to avoid starving, fighting with other groups
for access to food and generally lving on the edge of death. Not for me tho.

edit: you seem to be saying over-population by man is a bad thing (i hate
ppl too mind u), wouldn't that mean over-population of any spiecies is a
bad thing? Such as... say.... cats? :-)

-Ben

henry ford
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Post by henry ford » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:25 am

which came first ?

the over population of man and then the over population of cats through man's want to amuse himself with furry critters

or maybe

the over population of the white man and then the over population of cats ?


or maybe

the white man arriving on australia's shores , courtesy of her rotten-ness the queen, and declaring the indigenous aborigine fair game until 1956 , i do believe.

peruse http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/sep19 ... -s07.shtml at your leisure. couldnt find anything at quick notice to verify that 1956 was the year
that an aborigine was no longer considered 'fair game' (ie, the same as a pheasant, or feral cat.)

and not necessarily the definitive source of information on the subject, but feel free to check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture , again another quick find as I couldnt be assed trying to convert a muck-savage such as yourself with my own feelings and typing skills.

MrYellow
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Post by MrYellow » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:41 am

You really think I need educating as to the plight of aborigines?

You may feel special for knowing about it being overseas, here it's a day to
day issue we all deal with in some way shape or form.

I like how people are assuming that I don't support permaculture and the
like.... Or have assumed that I support the mis-treatment of animals... Or
assume I eat lots of meat.... Or assume I want to kill whales :-) Shit I
don't even drive a car!

All I said was cats are better dead, didn't say anything bout how to kill
them, personally I prefer gas, water or cold to do the job humanely as
possible. Then I said growing your own meat isn't really an option if you
want to have time to pursue other activities.

Permaculture is great, and my rotational garden does supply a nice
supplement however in any community that isn't a hunter gatherer, you
have to allow others to do some of the more specialised work for you. If I
tried to do everything myself I'd need 5000 hours a day to get it all done,
or I'd be wearing hessian bags, looking like shit, and would be lucky to
have even one musical instrument other then 2 sticks to hit together..

I'm probably more of an environmentalist then most here, just I'm not a
brainwashed American greeny, I'm a realist that lives in the real world and
understands that going back a million years isn't a practical solution to
anything.

It's easy to jump on my back when your head is full of ideological garbage.
Come join me in the real world anytime but please don't try and "convert"
this muck-savage from being a practical environmentalist with a very low
impact signature to a hypocritical windbag.

-Ben

henry ford
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Post by henry ford » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:49 am

are we to believe your heinous tendency to patronise and condescend belies an earth loving, kind and caring human being?

MrYellow
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Post by MrYellow » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:50 am

Now look what you've done.... You've made me join this childish "I'm a
bigger greeny bitch then you" competition u all seem to be having.

Lets all hug and sing songs around the camp fire and just accept we are all
assholes instead of trying to prove who is the more complete vegan.

-Ben

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