future dj tool?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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ze2be
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future dj tool?

Post by ze2be » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:59 pm

Just a thought...

When dj mixing anything else then techno dance music, all other music has varied tempos from track to track. If youd want to beat sync on this, the tracks them self must controll the master tempo. And when you fade to next track, the tempo should morph between thouse tracks.

HD1
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Post by HD1 » Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:01 am

tempo doesnt morph, it increases/decreases .....when mixing two different tempo tracks, if you dont increase or decrease the tempo of the track playing to match the tempo of the track coming in (or the other way round)....well, it will sound rough as fuck. Sometimes you might want that...but mostly it will sound rough as. If you mean the new track coming in should dictate the master tempo of live, for example, well I think that could sound rough as fuck as well...(wouldnt the tempo jump to the new tracks tempo ? wouldnt you want to this to be a smooth transition ? I think you'll be back at square one before you know it)

i could be wrong tho

ze2be
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Post by ze2be » Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:39 am

RopeyPunter wrote:tempo doesnt morph, it increases/decreases .....when mixing two different tempo tracks, if you dont increase or decrease the tempo of the track playing to match the tempo of the track coming in (or the other way round)....well, it will sound rough as fuck. Sometimes you might want that...but mostly it will sound rough as. If you mean the new track coming in should dictate the master tempo of live, for example, well I think that could sound rough as fuck as well...(wouldnt the tempo jump to the new tracks tempo ? wouldnt you want to this to be a smooth transition ? I think you'll be back at square one before you know it)

i could be wrong tho
if you fade, you make an envelope trancition on the tempo. Use a controller to morph between the tempos. Ofcource you must know roughly what the next tracks tempo is. But it says that already in the clip envelope information, no?

Say you have two tracks, one at 90bpm and one at 120. Then a beat detect system should read that value out of the file, and put each tempo value on each side of the crossfade/morph controller. Its already there, just need a system to make the trancition.

HD1
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Post by HD1 » Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:46 am

why dont you try beta testing this method yourself and let us know how it sounds...
to test it out, couldnt you use one fader to crossfade, and another to take the tempo from 90 to 120....is this what you mean?..I suppose it could sound nice, or at least not as rough as I thought :wink:

ze2be
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Post by ze2be » Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:49 am

RopeyPunter wrote:why dont you try beta testing this method yourself and let us know how it sounds...
to test it out, couldnt you use one fader to crossfade, and another to take the tempo from 90 to 120....is this what you mean?..I suppose it could sound nice, or at least not as rough as I thought :wink:
Yes, its kind of possibe already, though it would be much more smooth if the first and second track tempo of the trancition was read by live, and put the values into the crossfades left/right. It could be a check box by the audio crossfade on the master section, where you choose if you want or dont want to fade between the original clips tempo, when you crossfade audio. heheh

HD1
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Post by HD1 » Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:04 am

heh, sure it might be simple to implement.....but whats the point if it sounds whack, test it out!

ze2be
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Post by ze2be » Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:31 pm

RopeyPunter wrote:heh, sure it might be simple to implement.....but whats the point if it sounds whack, test it out!
Shure, ill do it!

hambone1
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Post by hambone1 » Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:44 pm

Unless it's percussive material, it's gonna sound crap "morphing" from 90 to 120 bpm. The tracks are gonna sound stupid as they speed up, especially if they are tracks that the crowd knows.

I have two techniques for transitioning between tempos. One is no cross-fade at all - just cut from the 90 bpm to the 120 bpm track. Obviously, the incoming track needs to start on 1.1.1 and preferably not have an intro.

The other technique is to cross-fade into a percussion loop, ramp the tempo up or down as required, then fade into the new track. I do this playing live percussion, too. I start playing along with the outgoing track, change my percussion tempo (I listen to an IEM click to make it work) until I reach the new tempo, then launch the incoming track with a footswitch on the drum controller.

I generally work everything to stay at similar tempos, then cross-fades are smooth. When the need arises to change tempos, I use on of the above techniques.

ze2be
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Post by ze2be » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:45 pm

hambone1 wrote:Unless it's percussive material, it's gonna sound crap "morphing" from 90 to 120 bpm. The tracks are gonna sound stupid as they speed up, especially if they are tracks that the crowd knows.
Well yeah, you need to be a good dj to do it right ;-) Its all about timing.

Thanks for the tips!

BTW, can you automate shuffle/swing quantize in live?

Michael-SW
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Post by Michael-SW » Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:53 pm

You could probably do it using a short ambient interlude too, you know swirling atmospheric stuff. Also, I might guess that the crowd might not like tempo jumping too much, but that your rather should keep it in blocks of similar tempo. Thus you only need a couple of those inderludes.

(But I'm not a dj so I'm just guessing...)

*sigh*
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Post by *sigh* » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:29 am

other techniques I use are:

looping 1-4 bars of the outgoing track and just speeding/slowing the loop to the incoming tempo

using an acapella as a bridge between the two with the pitch stable but tempo control variable, speeding up is less noticable without a regular drum beat

the ultimate energising hip-hop-to-house-tempo-change track "alphabet aerobics" by Blackalicious (there is a similar track on the last DJ Shadow album too)

but unless you can do it in a way that adds energy/ excitement or anticipation I would say you're better off just crash mixing the tracks, becaus emost of the time it does sound "wack".

ze2be
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Post by ze2be » Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:50 pm

Michael-SW wrote:You could probably do it using a short ambient interlude too, you know swirling atmospheric stuff. Also, I might guess that the crowd might not like tempo jumping too much, but that your rather should keep it in blocks of similar tempo. Thus you only need a couple of those inderludes.

(But I'm not a dj so I'm just guessing...)
Well, its the style of the dj set im doing, so it will fitt very well with this kind of liquid tempo trancision. But I dont mean on every mix ofcourse! Im looking at differen artistic aproaches for djing. In this case, not 4 on the floor!

ze2be
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Post by ze2be » Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:39 pm

*sigh* wrote:other techniques I use are:

looping 1-4 bars of the outgoing track and just speeding/slowing the loop to the incoming tempo

using an acapella as a bridge between the two with the pitch stable but tempo control variable, speeding up is less noticable without a regular drum beat

the ultimate energising hip-hop-to-house-tempo-change track "alphabet aerobics" by Blackalicious (there is a similar track on the last DJ Shadow album too)

but unless you can do it in a way that adds energy/ excitement or anticipation I would say you're better off just crash mixing the tracks, becaus emost of the time it does sound "wack".
Exactly, it must be a planned artistic aproach. But I have always mixed very creative when djing, and with good responces. Through the ninties I ended up playing on 4 decks at the same time, and I also evolved many creative mixing ideas over the years. For instance regarding this thread: spinning bouth vinyl records faster and faster, then crosfade from left to right, and let the other record spinn slow down naturaly by itself, and when its about the right speed, press play. It creates the illusion that you actualy do a beat mix, when you time everything right. I also tid the same thing slowing the tracks down a lot, then bring the next up again. But then you have to beatmix for real, because people get to hear whats actualy happening. But i did that too, and it takes some skill to do that right! Things like this used to blow peoples mind back then. Though im no where near what Claude Young used to do..

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