6 better be a rock !!!!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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knotkranky
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6 better be a rock !!!!

Post by knotkranky » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:03 pm

Ok so, Live is already a rock for a lot of you. But from the ones who know that's not true, 6 better be a rock. I want 6 to be tight. You pro's know what i'm talking about. Live apologists; you're out numbered. Ableton; get it together. Your app is damn cool.

leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:19 pm

what specifically do you mean? Because i have no idea what you're talking about and I'm pro enough to have a couple of credits for both recording and mastering. And also to have taught at an audio engineering school for a few years.

If you want live to be pro tools, i don't think that's gonna happen. Not because live is somehow "sub-pro," but mostly because engineers are a stubborn bunch and clients like big pro sounding names. Shit, if ableton just added edit and mix groups, and solo isolate, it would compete with pro-tools in my eyes. But that won't take away digidesign's advantage in terms of proprietary interfaces, like your TDM system for instance.

Besides, Pro-tools isn't really useful for anything other than straight up tracking editing/arranging and mixing. You can actually write tunes in live, and i'm pretty sure that's the point. If you're all about tracking editing/arranging and mixing bands, its gonna be pro tools, if you're writing electronic music, well, hands down live is the best piece of software out there.




.lm.
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knotkranky
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Post by knotkranky » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:40 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:what specifically do you mean? Because i have no idea what you're talking about and I'm pro enough to have a couple of credits for both recording and mastering. And also to have taught at an audio engineering school for a few years.

If you want live to be pro tools, i don't think that's gonna happen. Not because live is somehow "sub-pro," but mostly because engineers are a stubborn bunch and clients like big pro sounding names. Shit, if ableton just added edit and mix groups, and solo isolate, it would compete with pro-tools in my eyes. But that won't take away digidesign's advantage in terms of proprietary interfaces, like your TDM system for instance.

Besides, Pro-tools isn't really useful for anything other than straight up tracking editing/arranging and mixing. You can actually write tunes in live, and i'm pretty sure that's the point. If you're all about tracking editing/arranging and mixing bands, its gonna be pro tools, if you're writing electronic music, well, hands down live is the best piece of software out there.
.lm.
Well, thats the point. Has live been made to suppliment or be competitive with pro audio apps. I love Live, I love Protools. By the way there are more published tracks written in protools than in Live. But Is that all Ableton thinks of Live? As a writting tool? Not a DAW? I don't want Live to be protools. I just don't want it to Glitch, skip or mess with my timing ever. The writing front end is great for sure. Why can't the audio side, and I mean reliability, be a rock like, Logic, Protools, Cubase.? You bet us pro's are a stubborn bunch and the clients more so. We don't care about big names. We use what is reliable.

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Post by SubFunk » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:52 pm

sorry guys to jump in here, i love live, absolutely.
but i don't see it as a full blown, grown up DAW, but then again that is not what I want from it, i love it because of it's different approach to things, e.g. session viev, DJ ability, quick laying down ideas and doing lots of stuff on the fly with excellent shortcut support for that particular use, i call live performance with samples, keys, synths, drum mashines on stage...

other then that, that 5 is a bit of a CPU hog, i personally don't have reliabilty problems, and when i am after a full blown production, recording apps then i go for a matured DAW like e.g. logic.

i personally think ableton should keep it's position as being 'the different' apps, why should they do what others already do and they do it nearly perfect.

just my two cents, if ableton becomes a 'traditional' DAW then it will be totally useless for me. as i would go for something excisting from developers who have over a decade more experience in developing a 'traditinal' DAW apps (i do already with logic for that purpose), keep it fresh and DIFFERENT ableton, please!!

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Post by leisuremuffin » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:56 pm

check me off for not wanting it to be a DAW either. There are plenty out there, and they are totally boring to work with if you're trying to write. Again, i'll say that if you just want to track/edit/arrange/mix go ahead and use pro tools or logic or whatever. (BTW, we might not care about name, but how many bands want to track and mix their next record at a studio with logic? Does that mean pro-tools is better than logic? or DP? or whatever other DAW is out there? Nope, it means the client has heard of Pro-tools more than logic.)


I'm using live in basically the same way i used to use my mpc2000, but with the extra bonus that i can actually get whole lot more out of it, ie i can finish a whole track from start to finish with it. Does that mean i'm going to use it to track a project with live drums? Hell no. And i don't need it to, if i want to use live drums in something i'm doing, i can track/edit and mix to stereo in PT and then cut the resulting file up in live. However, I can't use PT to turn a few phrases of drums/key/whatever into an original track that's bigger than the sum of its parts. Well, at least not without a lot of clicking and patience. Get what i'm saying? As a replacement for a tape machine, PT and some other daws are better right now, but if you're thinking of the program as more of an advanced sequencer/sampler instrument, well, you know what i think already.


And like i said, if live just added edit/mix groups, and solo isolate, i probably wouldn't even bother with pro-tools to edit/mix the drums. Maybe still track if i have access to a HD system.


.lm.
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djadonis206
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Post by djadonis206 » Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:32 pm

Maybe if they took away your ability to change skins and had a more 'pro' look it would change some peoples view of the program

then again it does everything I could want out of a program - except the actual audio editing like Pro-Tools but they could do that if they wanted

I want groups yes and faster arrangement redraws

CD Import

the ability to take a track and fill the whole screen up with that track so I can make sample accurate cuts and slices - or the ability to slice and dice in the clip view

I'm moer on the audio editing tip - making music shouldn't be so complicated but it should be as robust as the most "pro" user expects

I think, I don't know I could be in someone elses parallel universe and this is all a big "Whatever"
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knotkranky
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Post by knotkranky » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:08 pm

The topic is stability. This is not a compare DAW features issue. Of course, different Live users with different Live styles will have different thresholds of expectations, joy and pain. Call it what you want, Live "is" and wants to be a "Digital Audio Workstation" and it needs to handle audio a lot better.

Yes, for laying down "ideas", stability is not an issue. For Live gigs, no big deal either. A glitch here, a timing issue there, no love lost. But, from recording to mix which is a huge Live contingent, artists and engineers need rock solid reliability. I don't need Live to become a traditional daw. Many of us just want Live to do, what it "says" it can do but, very reliably. Were at version 6 now and this program should be way more mature by now and as "reliable" as the others, but not "like" the others. I'm with you guys on that.

I don't want to change Live. I want it to walk before it can run. Why add video if it's stumbling all over itself. I want to make it more robust first and foremost, "then" better. Yeah, groups, faster draws, sample level editing, video etc.

All the troubles for many in 5 need to be gone, gone, gone. That would be plenty right now.

C'mon, anybody with me? Or better yet, anybody gonna be disappointed if it's more of the same in 6? If ya don't kick Ableton in the pants with what you want, expect more of the same.

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Post by DeadlyKungFu » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:13 pm

You sound kranky ;)
(Sorry, had to be said)

There is no such thing as bug free software, maybe 'hello world' but software is inherently flawed.

djadonis206
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Post by djadonis206 » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:20 pm

knotkranky wrote:
C'mon,

If ya don't kick Ableton in the pants with what you want, expect more of the same.
One of the guys at Ableton HQ owes me some money for some weed so I'm going to kick someone somehwere if I don't get my cheddar











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gomi
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Post by gomi » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:24 pm

SubFunk wrote: just my two cents, if ableton becomes a 'traditional' DAW then it will be totally useless for me. as i would go for something excisting from developers who have over a decade more experience in developing a 'traditinal' DAW apps (i do already with logic for that purpose), keep it fresh and DIFFERENT ableton, please!!
same here
the only thing from a grown up daw i would like to see is a movie window
it would just make sound design that much easier, organically designing
rather then the chopping back and forth and start and stop and edit and
audiosuite and chop and stop and edit and stop and start and stop of
protools.

oh.. and a surround panner (which would be awesome live if the venue
was equiped for it)

SubFunk
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Post by SubFunk » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:25 pm

i have to back-up deadlykungfu, if you have serious reliabilty problems then your entire system is not in shape, live5 is fine, i run it on a mac and it's been tutty fruitty, that said all people i know using live5 are satisfied and there are lots of them. get your system right. i agree it's a CPU hog, but that's it.

leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:45 pm

gotta agree. I don't have stability issues.

I do have cpu use issues galore, but no stability issues.



.lm.
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leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:48 pm

Aaaaaand, i gotta say it, stability is a huge issue for me playing live.

I've trusted live to do this since version 2, and trust me, before that i was a real hardware fanatic because of stability. When performing live, live has never let me down and i've played a lot of gigs with it.



.lm.
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knotkranky
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Post by knotkranky » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:15 pm

Nah, i ain't kranky, I just want Live to be a rock....I don't have serious reliability problems. I have little reliability problems. On a scale of 1 to 10; Logic and Protools are a 2. Live5 is a by comparison a 7. My system is tip top, my expectations high, tolerance low. 20 years in the biz i bet. Yes all programs have bugs, but the most bothersome ones are the ones that affect the audio negatively. A crash, file menu flaw, slow redraws are obvious and can be trusted to be just that. But something in the audio that makes you go; "What was that?" is most unnerving. That's not a bug, that's a problem. And Live has more of those than all the others.

As far as satisfied users, there are plenty. But i'm not the only one bitching about this. Threads o plenty! The ones who complain are stretching out Live in the most tame of ways compared to other apps.

One may say; "Live is running tip top for me" but what are you doing? and why are your production values the benchmark for reliability issues.

Ok so, Anybody running 32+ tracks of audio with some simple plugs, without a single glitch all day?

DeadlyKungFu
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Post by DeadlyKungFu » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:22 pm

I have low expectations of software in general and a very low tolerance for wrenching on my PC when I want to make music. One thing I LOVE about Live are the workarounds, I don't even want to install Bidule or MIDI yoke because I enjoy the ways I can tweak Live. So, when my system gets weird or I get pops or it starts to slow down I bounce down, rearrange, rethink what I'm doing. I'm Live's bitch, I work around it, not the other way around. I don't know if that's good or bad, never thought about it, I just bang beats.

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