Audio engine question

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
stinky
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Post by stinky » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:00 pm

yeah, but what serious artist is mastering at his home studio?! I mix and master in Protools (but the final mastering is always done at the mastering house, where the mastering pros do it), if that's what you're asking... but, 80% of my work is done in Abe, and it's professional... just for different things..

gomi
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protools

Post by gomi » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:10 pm

Rayko wrote: I think cubase don´t sound as logic, neither protools or digital performer. Each one has it own audio engine and his own bounce algorythm that make each one to sound different (in session and when mixdown).
dunno about live and cubase and logic
but here is an indepth look at protools


http://akwww.digidesign.com/support/doc ... tMixer.pdf

Digidesign Technical White Papers

The Pro Tools 48-Bit Mixer
A Digidesign white paper by Gannon Kashiwa

Quote:
This technical article provides detailed information about how the Pro Tools mixer operates. In so doing, we will demonstrate its summing characteristics and explain how a 48-bit "clean" mixer functions within the 24-bit TDM (Time Division Multiplexing) environment. By providing some "behind-the-scenes" information about mixing and summing in Pro Tools, we hope to shed light on a few myths about mixing "in the box" with Pro Tools, as well as provide you with a better understanding of the mechanics of summing signals.


...

nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:18 pm

stinky wrote:yeah, but what serious artist is mastering at his home studio?! I mix and master in Protools (but the final mastering is always done at the mastering house, where the mastering pros do it), if that's what you're asking... but, 80% of my work is done in Abe, and it's professional... just for different things..
I master at home using an audio editor after mixing down from Live. I use a combination of my monitors, headphones, car stereo, crappy stereo boombox, and MP3s on a variety of laptop speakers to get the best overall balance. Again, you can go "pro" or you can be creative and use the tools you got.

nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:23 pm

I have a hard time giving credibility to any marketing documentation from ProTools. These guys have built a very lucrative business trying to become the "standard". I've never agreed with the cost of ProTools, or that you can only be "pro" if you're only using it. Not only can you do whatever you want to with native based systems like Cubase, but you can get even more creative with paradigm-breaking Live. I just don't buy into the marketing BS coming from a company that has a vested interest in charging absurd amounts of money for hardware and software.

gomi
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Post by gomi » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:42 pm

nebulae wrote:I have a hard time giving credibility to any marketing documentation from ProTools. These guys have built a very lucrative business trying to become the "standard". I've never agreed with the cost of ProTools, or that you can only be "pro" if you're only using it. Not only can you do whatever you want to with native based systems like Cubase, but you can get even more creative with paradigm-breaking Live. I just don't buy into the marketing BS coming from a company that has a vested interest in charging absurd amounts of money for hardware and software.
thats not a marketing document, it's an expanation of how
their 48bit mixer works.

their marketing documents don't have words over 3 syllables in them
as a general rule.

Nokatus
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Post by Nokatus » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:48 pm

Rayko wrote:Anybody has ever seen live as master secquencer in a serious studio (not homestudio)? I guess the answer is no.
Have you ever seen Melodyne as the master multitracker in a "serious studio"? Oh, you haven't? Well gee, too bad for Celemony then, I guess they don't manufacture professional software after all. I wonder why people have been so excited about it then :twisted:

I believe you see my point? Even though Live is and has been actively used by loads and loads of professionals, you're saying that it isn't "professional software" because you feel it isn't used as a master sequencer in serious studios. So, you're comparing the share of the industry stalwart master sequencer packages to a creative application first conceived as a live performance tool and an improvisational environment, relatively recently starting to be developed as a whole music production environment? Based on that, you decide that the latter somehow isn't professional software, despite the fact it's being used by professionals day in and day out, both in the studio and in live situations?

Yeah. :wink:

nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:58 pm

gomi wrote:
nebulae wrote:I have a hard time giving credibility to any marketing documentation from ProTools. These guys have built a very lucrative business trying to become the "standard". I've never agreed with the cost of ProTools, or that you can only be "pro" if you're only using it. Not only can you do whatever you want to with native based systems like Cubase, but you can get even more creative with paradigm-breaking Live. I just don't buy into the marketing BS coming from a company that has a vested interest in charging absurd amounts of money for hardware and software.
thats not a marketing document, it's an expanation of how
their 48bit mixer works.

their marketing documents don't have words over 3 syllables in them
as a general rule.
From WikiPedia:
"the term white paper has also come to refer to documents that argue non-governmental positions as well. For example, many white papers today espouse the benefits of particular technologies and products. These types of white papers are often marketing communications documents and are designed to promote a specific company's solutions or products as it relates to the issue or topic examined. As a marketing tool, it is important to note that these papers will often highlight information favorable to the company authoring or sponsoring the paper while minimizing any negative aspects related to the company's involvement with the issue, product or technology."

Eat me.

Rayko
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Post by Rayko » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:20 pm

Of course. i´m not the typical anti-ableton guy. I love it design(it workflow, flexibility, session concept, and many many more)
It´s really amazing that a relatively new company has developed such a fucking good piece of software!

It´s only that i can´t imagine someone recording an orchestra in live. I have a G5 and live could not support too much cpu load (if you compare the tracks, vst,...with logic the difference is really big) This is only an example of a task that the internal architecture of live doesn´t do very well.

What about the sound? When you bounce, do you think you obtain exactly the same audio you was hearing in your session? When you plug an vst, it sound the same in live as in logic, protools,....? I only want to know if this is not another thin point of my loved Ableton Live.

rikhyray
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Post by rikhyray » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:34 pm

Aree bhaya! why even getting involved in such silly troll thread, (still have to support my South Asian homie).
Pro has nothing to do with any abstract quality but with selling a product. I am over 20 years pro musician and was never asked by any label, ad agency, radio or TV with what equipment, nowdays software a track was made. Nobody cares, neither interested. Yes sometimes I may be asked to deliver material in PT format/pack neither anyone would ask me "do you have ProTools" it is the most widely used worldwide but really means nothing qualitative, having/using ProTools does not make you pro, selling does. How you make that shit is your problem, you must deliver what client wants.
Anything can be pro tool if used for commercial purpose, remember once percussionist didnt bring cajon and flamenco feel was needed, we used a chair and add some digital ambience, so chair became protool since he got paid for recording cajon.
The subject of difference of sound of Live, Cubase, DP, PT or whatever should be left to intellectually challanged non musicians.

Nokatus
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Post by Nokatus » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:35 pm

Rayko wrote:Of course. i´m not the typical anti-ableton guy. I love it design(it workflow, flexibility, session concept, and many many more)
It´s really amazing that a relatively new company has developed such a fucking good piece of software!

It´s only that i can´t imagine someone recording an orchestra in live.
I know what you're saying, yes. It just got to me that you said Live isn't "professional software", on those grounds. One can't necessarily imagine someone recording a full classical orchestra in it, but that hasn't exactly been the point of Live in the first place. There are many kinds of professional solutions, all having their strong points over the other packages. As a creative music production environment and a live performance tool Live is a very special -- and professional -- package indeed.

However, sorry about the thread hijack :)

stinky
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Post by stinky » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:38 pm

Sorry, i go by the belief that integrated audio software and hardware developed and tested by one company (ie, Protools, Mac, etc) will always be better than audio software and hardware being used from various manufacturers. I've compared PT Digi002 to other software/hardware combinations (Cubase/DP/Motu, etc) and to my ears, it sounds better and warmer. You can think what you want, Nebulae, and that's your opinion, but by your own sentiment, and mine, credibility to any marketing documentation from any company should be hard earned. In one statement you're saying:
I have a hard time giving credibility to any marketing documentation from ProTools.
and in another you're pointing out:
As a marketing tool, it is important to note that these papers will often highlight information favorable to the company authoring or sponsoring the paper while minimizing any negative aspects related to the company's involvement with the issue, product or technology."
So, is it that you have something personal against PT? It sounds to me like just because they're an industry standard, that makes it cool to diss them...

I've used DP, Cubase, PT, Live.. and Yes, PT has some crippled functions, and they do charge more... but, so what. So does the BMW 325i, and most people would rather have that with less features than other cheaper cars, not just because of the name but because of the quality and comfortability. PT fuckin rocks. I like the control surface... and before it came out, there wasn't a midi control surface that came out that even compared to the simplicity in the way it works(and there still isn't).. I had several, and they were all kludges. Not just that, routing is straight forward, grouping, mixing, etc... Their midi implementation has gotten way better.. yeah, RTAS sux, but get fxpansion and use vsts.. problem solved PT just works, straight outta the box, no muss, no fuss... and that's why it's an industry standard. And that's why more artists use Macs... for the same exact reason..

So, yeah... go ahead... rag on PT because they're an industry standard... but it's not just because of their marketing machine that they got there...

AT THE END OF THE DAY, PT will still be an industry standard, and that's not going to change.

Also, yeah.. I use LIVE more than PT, because it's fun as shit, but PT's submixing bus, the sound quality, mixing and mastering, are way ahead of LIVE's.. and there's a majority of people that use live for sketching and sequencing, and bounce down to mix/master in something else...

Rayko
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Post by Rayko » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:45 pm

Thanks stinky. You hace catched exactly was i was triying to explain

stinky
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Post by stinky » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:23 pm

Rayko,

You're missing the point... I use Live 80% of the time, because it is a Professional APP.. But just because it doesn't have everything, doesn't mean it's not a professional app. Don't forget, Live was originally intended for LIVE use... it wasn't meant to be a DAW!!!!!!!!!! DUHHHHH..

It's main function is going to continue to be a LIVE app... the best around, used by loads of professionals.. Name one other APP used by PROS, in a LIVE setting that even compares to ABE's product??? There's nothing else around for professionals to use live...

Also, now that it is turning into more of a DAW, just remember how old Cubase, DP, Logic, and PT are compared to LIVE??? And, look how far LIVE has come in such a short time compared to those "more professional" apps. There's things live can do that those other apps just can't, or is to convoluted of a process to even try...

So... My lasting point is this... for you to think that live is not a PRO app is pretty naive... and judging by your statements, you haven't been using LIVE for any length of time to make that type of judgement... Keep reading the boards, keep posting your questions, however naive and shallow they may be, and come back when you've gotten a handle on the power of live, and what it should and shouldn't be used for, and then we can all talk about professionalism.

nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:52 pm

All good points. My personal taste is pro Live and anti Tools. Thanks for the discussion.

Shout out to my brown-brutha.

Robert Henke
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Post by Robert Henke » Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:20 pm

A tool is a tool. If it is pro or not defines the user. What was pro yesterday is below every standard nowadays. Is a sixten track analog tape recorder pro?
If not, a lot of great music from a not so long ago past is not pro.
Live is not a dedicated mastering application and Live does not do 5.1 surround yet.
If you want to master a track you might better use something like Pro Tools, same goes for surround production. But using Pro Tools will not guarranty that the result will make it into the charts. And most music today is played back as shitty mp3 where each sharp transient sounds like processed with NI spectral delay...music from super-pro producers, produced using the most expensive gear. Good sound is the result of experience and nothing else. And good sound has very less to do with bit resolution or frequency response. Good sound is still good on a $10 cassette player. Bad sound gets worth on expensive gear ;-)

Robert

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