Ultra Newbie: Learning to Master/Engineer -->Where to beg

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
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supergrover1981
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 10:04 pm

Ultra Newbie: Learning to Master/Engineer -->Where to begin?

Post by supergrover1981 » Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:22 am

Hi Gang,

Last week I splurged on Ableton live and a whole bunch of PC recording equipment - it's my first foray into home recording/composition and I am absolutely LURRVING it.

This week I thought I'd try and improve my sound engineering/production/mastering skills by trying to recreate well-produced songs in Live. I wanted to start off with something simple, so I tried recreating Radiohead's "No Surprises". Just a glock, vocals, simple bassline, simple drums and a basic guitar line...how hard could it be? Well, trying to recreate the song has tought me one important lesson: I don't know JACK about sound recording. :D

I'm hopping between Impulse & BFD for a drumline, and no matter which setup I choose the drums have way, way too much energy. What I mean is: imagine you took a drummer from a very heavy rock band and asked "Can you please play the drumline for Radiohead's No Surprises...and by the way, your wife called and says she's sleeping with your brother and wants a divorce". The sound you'd get is probably fairly similar to what I have at the moment.

I'm using virtual bassist for the bassline, and no matter what bass/amp combination I set up the bass is, similarly, WAY too characterful. (I don't know if "characterful" is a sound engineering term - I'm just making stuff up :D). What I mean is, the bass really upstages the glock & vocals: on my version you can hear too much fret buzz, too much attack, too much character in general. In the original recording it sounds like a very plain, undecorated set of notes.

So I guess what I'm asking is: where do I start in learning how to mess with sound settings? I really don't have much of a clue and would love to learn about everything from EQ to attack, gain, delay, cutoff, etc etc etc that can make my "No Surprises" bassline sound anything even remotely similar to the original song. Any recommendations for a good book, website or general resource would be really really appreciated.

Lotsa thanks gang,
- JB

jesQuick
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Post by jesQuick » Sat Jun 03, 2006 7:11 am

LOL---- Great post!

Trial and error... Thats about the only way Im affraid...

And do some searching on the web... Alot of good resources out there!

Happy programming!

SubFunk
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Post by SubFunk » Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:16 am

a good source on the web for gaining propper knowledge all subjects recording, mixing, engineering is http://www.recording.org just cruise, read and post concrete questions, there are people on recording.org who have real knowledge and everyday work experience.

good luck, and try and error as much as you possibly can. there is no substitute for your own experience.

aditional try maybee an internship?

ishimaru
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Post by ishimaru » Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:31 am

Lower the volume. (Seriously best advice anyone has ever given me)


The End
Every situation(1) should be confronted with its opposite(2) to come to a better situation(3).

1 Thesis
2 Antithesis
3 Synthesis

- Hegel

GranMarnierAndYooHoo
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Post by GranMarnierAndYooHoo » Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:17 pm

hey, great!

you're going to have fun.


As mentioned, trial and error is really the best way. However, it's also incredibly time consuming, have a decade to spare?


The next best thing is to find somebody with experience and learn one on one from them. You might even try calling up small local studios, guys who run these seem to always be barely scraping by, so almost all of them are willing to take on paying students. Of course for what you're trying to learn right now, understanding synthesis is really important too, and not all recording engineers are the best with that. You might try to find a local electronic musician to help you out.


Why do i say synthesis is important when you didn't mention any synthesizers in your post? Well, because the language of synthesis (envelopes, lfos, filters etc.) is the language of electronic music. It's a very important foundation.



good luck to you,

.lm.

Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:25 pm

the problem you have is in the use of samples and VSTi, I can't remember the exact instrumental combo they used on that track - but I suspect the drumming is what an old mate of mine always called "wedding drumming"

IE: unobtrusive, innoffensive, lightly hit, most likely with brushes. The other thing is the actual kit - a big Tama 70s rock kit is a very different sounding instrument from a Gretsch jazz kit.

thirdly - the miking of kits is a wide art, subject to whims of engineers. Varying from old school 'two overheads' type ambience miking to 'top and bottom on every piece' . Most drum machine samples are taken using the second (close-miked) method for 'separation' , but that doesn't give the correct sound.

So, to overcome your kit limitations, find a 'jazz' kit that is multisampled at diferent velocities (IE it isn't just lowered in volume at low hits), 'play' it softly create a virtual 'room' to put it in.

thats a start.

djshiva
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Post by djshiva » Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:59 pm

welcome to the wonderful world of learning to make music in Live.

loved the post. i love to try and remake songs just to figure out what goes where and to hone my chops. i made an electro version of bratmobile's "cherry bomb" once just cuz i was bored. it was fun as hell!

there are a lot of great web resources. one that i have used a lot is www.computermusic.co.uk but there are tons more. google em!

volume adjustment (pull all your volumes down and bring them up one by one until they sit better in the mix) and eq (best advice: subtract frequencies instead of adding...eq helps you make room in the mix for the specific frequency ranges of each instrument so nothing overpowers or drowns out anything else) are great things to learn, as well as messing with different velocities on those drums. :)

good luck and have fun!
http://www.soundcloud.com/djshiva
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http://sapphicbeats.blogspot.com

Macbook Pro Core 2 Duo / OSX / 2Gb RAM / Ableton Live 8 / Akai LPD8/LPK25

supergrover1981
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Post by supergrover1981 » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:16 pm

:D

Cheers guys, thanks heaps - will have a browse around and keep tinkering. ...It's getting better...sorta kinda... :D

Michael-SW
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Post by Michael-SW » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:28 pm

EQ! If something is sounding too big and colorful, lower the volume and then start cutting frequencies.

But actual timbres (how the sounds sound) is also going to play a big part. Especially if the samples you are using have alot of room ambience (typical of "big drums"). It is easier to start with dry sounds and add ambience (reverb or short delay) than the other way around.

dj superflat
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Post by dj superflat » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:50 pm

that's one of the funnier things i've read in a while (only because the description of diving right in is funny -- i applaud your initiative). anywho, my 2 cents:

easier way to go about this is to make sure you have the right sound in the first place, rather than trying to EQ and compress something that doesn't fit.

try to keep things simple to start -- there's a reason many people started on 4 trax, if you have too many elements, mixing becomes very hard at first (you'll end up with all the levels at the top as you increase the bass you can't hear only to realize you now can't hear the synth only to realize you now can't hear etc.).

treating EQ like you would a song on your car stereo makes most sense to begin. that is, only mess with it if something has no presence or is all bass.

make good use of the ability to lay something down and then try it every which way. e.g., put down the midi for your drum line, then try out every impulse drum kit you've got to see what fits, or put down the synth bass, then try every effect to see what brings it out.

this could go on forever. enjoy.

FaX-01
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Re: Ultra Newbie: Learning to Master/Engineer -->Where to be

Post by FaX-01 » Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:17 am

supergrover1981 wrote:Hi Gang,


So I guess what I'm asking is: where do I start in learning how to mess with sound settings? I really don't have much of a clue and would love to learn about everything from EQ to attack, gain, delay, cutoff, etc etc etc that can make my "No Surprises" bassline sound anything even remotely similar to the original song. Any recommendations for a good book, website or general resource would be really really appreciated.

Lotsa thanks gang,
- JB

Well all I've gotta say is ......

It's along hard road out of hell.

Seriously some 12 odd years on with electronic production and I'm still learning new shit everyday.
My aren't the wings of butterflies beautiful and do they not make wonderful perturbations.....

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