Live guitar looping?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Surreal
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Post by Surreal » Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:38 pm

quandry wrote:
I'd have to respectfully disagree.
you are right in mentioning the strengths of using Live as a looper.

but the weakness lies in configuring it. i really do not know if i want to invest the time it would take to really get live set up properly for this.

it would be $270 for the live upgrade from lite and $150 min for the foot pedal. and then i would have to set key commands up. and then i would have to set a midi translator up. and i have done enough to know this would not be a quick set up and forget process. i am fine with spending the money, since i am considering the RC50, but the time spend just setting it up--not even actually getting accustomed to it-- is offputting.

Surreal
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Post by Surreal » Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:39 pm

and, there should be a sticky of one clear outline of how to set up live to loop in performance.

rbro
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Post by rbro » Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:48 pm

Anyone use the looper withing NI Guitar Rig 2?

quandry
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Post by quandry » Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:27 pm

Surreal wrote:
quandry wrote:
I'd have to respectfully disagree.
you are right in mentioning the strengths of using Live as a looper.

but the weakness lies in configuring it. i really do not know if i want to invest the time it would take to really get live set up properly for this.

it would be $270 for the live upgrade from lite and $150 min for the foot pedal. and then i would have to set key commands up. and then i would have to set a midi translator up. and i have done enough to know this would not be a quick set up and forget process. i am fine with spending the money, since i am considering the RC50, but the time spend just setting it up--not even actually getting accustomed to it-- is offputting.
I know it can seem daunting at first, especially if you don't know much about midi, but honestly it is very easy, and it is "set and forget"--I haven't changed my template set or my 1010 patches in years. My guitarist partner in one of my bands just got Live, and I helped him install the program, set up his soundcard, program his 1010, and assign midi mappings to live in about 40 minutes. With Live installed and a working soundcard, all you have to do is set up one bank of the 1010--10 patches sending fixed midi cc messages. Then all you do is assign these to clip slots and record arm buttons in Live. If you wanna get the "delete" happening, installing midi ox and bomes is pretty straightforward. Once installed, you go into midi ox and select you midi interface as the input, and set up two output channels. One of these channels you select as the midi input to live. The other channel is the input to bomes. In bomes you choose whatever midi cc message you have assigned on you dedicated "delete" pedal on your 1010 to act as the delete key. That's it. then all you do is set global quantize to "bar" in Live, arm tracks and record loops.

Live could make it easier by giving us a midi mappable "delete" button inside of the program, getting rid of needing midi ox and bomes. But thats about as simple as they could make it--people use a host of controllers for Live, so setting up predefined assignments to clip slots would help anyone. Plus, the 1010 patches from the factory have a bunch of commands assigned that you need to turn off to strip it down to just one simple fixed midi cc command per pedal. Anyhow, you $420 would be infinitely better spent on a Live/1010 looping setup than an rc-50 imho, for all of the reasons I stated before. Sure hardware looping pedals are easier to loop with right out of the box, but they also have tons of limitations compared to Live, which can eventually get annoying. Cheif among these is I doubt anyone composed and produces a song on an rc-50--compose maybe, but there's no real opportunity to make a polished finished song with no control of track volumes, effect, and everything mono. With Live you can composed the pieces of a song with loops, then take these and build them into a polished song. my 2 cents...
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quandry
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Post by quandry » Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:29 pm

Surreal wrote:and, there should be a sticky of one clear outline of how to set up live to loop in performance.
There's no one prescriptive way to do it--many people do it many different ways--it's a matter of personal preference and what you are trying to do. If you read some of the links I posted at the top of the thread, and search the forums you'll find a wealth of information and a number of different approaches that you can use to inform how you want to set up your set.
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dj superflat
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Post by dj superflat » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:39 pm

not sure if this is what you're asking, but i've used the guitar rig looper in live, it works fine, but i can't see what you get out of it, because you're still stuck with overdubbed loops (unless there's some way to get live to separate them out i'm not seeing). somewhat irritating that the GR pedal doesn't send midi (so you can't set it up so that it triggers both the GR looper and, simultaneously, does other things in live).

Surreal
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Post by Surreal » Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:36 am

quandry wrote: Anyhow, you $420 would be infinitely better spent on a Live/1010 looping setup than an rc-50 imho, for all of the reasons I stated before. Sure hardware looping pedals are easier to loop with right out of the box, but they also have tons of limitations compared to Live, which can eventually get annoying. Cheif among these is I doubt anyone composed and produces a song on an rc-50--compose maybe, but there's no real opportunity to make a polished finished song with no control of track volumes, effect, and everything mono. With Live you can composed the pieces of a song with loops, then take these and build them into a polished song. my 2 cents...
i actually agree, and that is why i want to use ableton. i really just assumed that ableton had most of it worked out and somewhat streamlined.

and it isnt even the lack of delete that really bothers me, it is the need for another program, but i WANT to use live for looping.

quandry
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Post by quandry » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:24 am

Surreal wrote: i actually agree, and that is why i want to use ableton. i really just assumed that ableton had most of it worked out and somewhat streamlined.

and it isnt even the lack of delete that really bothers me, it is the need for another program, but i WANT to use live for looping.
But it is worked out, and very well--the global quantize set to "bar" is a godsend compared to loop pedals--perfect loops every time. If you don't want delete, then you don't need another program--all you need is a footboard and half and hour to set it up, that's it. bomes and midi ox are completely free, but only necessary if you want to have a delete pedal, otherwise all you need is Live.
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Surreal
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Post by Surreal » Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:12 am

what are my options for midi translators on OS X?

quandry
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Post by quandry » Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:27 am

I believe one called midipipe and another called controlaid made by a cat that frequents these forums--maybe a mac users can step in here, but it is most definitely do-able. The catch is (if you read my posts and links) is that midi select on launch isn't proper in ver 4 or 5 compared to 3--4 just plain doesn't work, and in 5 your clip is selected on midi launch only when the clip grid is in "focus". This makes using the "delete" qwerty key to delete a clip you trigger with you footboard not work every time--if you bring the effect, clip, or browser into focus by using the mouse, then using delete won't delete your flubbed clip, and it could even delete something important. Some loopers map "undo" instead of delete, which is a slightly better option in Live 5, but if you monkey with anything during your loop, like an exp pedal controlling volume, or anything that can be "undone" in Live, then hiting an "undo" mapped foot pedal will undo this, not delete your loop. Plus some vst and vsti send out constant midi data which makes undo totally worthless. Anyhow, I still use 3 to be able to consistently delete flubbed loops, and I hope they get it right (again) in 6.
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charvel-floyd
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Post by charvel-floyd » Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:21 am

quandry wrote:Anyhow, I still use 3 to be able to consistently delete flubbed loops, and I hope they get it right (again) in 6.
Ryan...your a kind gentleman to provide all this info. And perhaps I'm the only one, but your msgs make the process sound quite involved. If anyone's willing to make a vid of the setup, I'd be forever grateful.

Surreal
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Post by Surreal » Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:03 am

is there a way to view all of the possible key assignments as a list?

i am trying to figure out all of the assignments i will make.

scene up
scene down
launch
Metronome



but is there an arm track button? just a butotn to arm the selected track. and is there a left and right? or will i be depending on midipide for that?

it seems like most of the functions are specific to clips, i know this makes it simpler to keep track of, but i can't seem to figure out an intuitive way to set up 12 buttons. (i am looking at the voodoo lab ground control) i think that, with the bank switch button, it would be reasonable to spread the functions across 2 banks, but no more. so i would have 24. the second could be a grid of clips.

i don't know, i knwo that i will be in a better position to work it all out when i actualy get the full version of live and a pedal, but it is a hefty bit of money and i would like to have something resembling a plabn going into the purchase.


(in short, how many functions and what functinos are most common and efficient to map ot a pedalboard?)

quandry
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Post by quandry » Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:39 am

I do all-live looping, so my sets start out blank, fwiw. Thus I don't need to use scenes at all. i just have one bank of my fcb 1010 set up for my looping set. four pedals set to toggle record arm on and off of four tracks. four pedal mapped to trigger the recording of a clip in the top slot of my four main tracks. One pedal mapped to the record a clip on the top slot of my guitarists track. One pedal to delete. Between songs I usually delete all of the clips out of these slots, or sometimes leave one or two going and just drag them down to the second row of clip slots. I find that for me, sometimes just using the mouse to do things like highlighting and deleting four clips is the most efficient way. Granted, if you are using pre-recorded material and need to use scenes, you want a pedal mapped to scene up, scene down, and fire scene. With the 1010 (and maybe the voodoo lab pedal), you can send multiple commands at once, so you may be able to arm record and trigger a clip to record with one pedal, but I haven't tried it. There was an interesting loop recording setup that I think is in the link within a link I put at the top of this thread...here it is:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=
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TheAnimal
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Post by TheAnimal » Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:33 pm

quandry wrote:the global quantize set to "bar" is a godsend compared to loop pedals--perfect loops every time.
I absolutely agree. The Digitech GNX4 e.g. has a fixed 1/8 note quantization only. So i really had to practice to get correct loops, and I still mess it up every now and then. With Live it's much more relaxed. :)
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quandry
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Post by quandry » Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:46 pm

TheAnimal wrote:
quandry wrote:the global quantize set to "bar" is a godsend compared to loop pedals--perfect loops every time.
I absolutely agree. The Digitech GNX4 e.g. has a fixed 1/8 note quantization only. So i really had to practice to get correct loops, and I still mess it up every now and then. With Live it's much more relaxed. :)
relaxed is the perfect way to put it--no worrying about nailing the pedal presses on perfect time--you can just focus on playing the part and leave it to live to nail it on the "1"
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