PA Quality in clubs

chris vine · Post by **chris vine** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:07 pm

I have been in a few dance clubs recently for the first time in years – anyway, in the places I have been to I have noticed that the quality of the sound really sucks big time. It seems that the DJs (I didn’t notice any laptops in their kit) like so many DJs I have seen in the past, push their outputs to 11, ie meters pinning in the red at all times.

In the last club I was in, I was backstage and I got to see the amp rack.

First in the chain was an Alesis compressor, set at 4:1 with a fast attack and fast release (i.e. whoever set it up probably DIDN’T set it up), this comp was sucking up to minus 12db in terms of gain reduction – so the sound was well crushed.
Next in line was a very nice BSS dual graphic EQ, I forget the model but I have used them before, they have excellent filters, but this was only being used to boost 18 and 20k, which the crap speaker cabs wouldn’t reproduce anyway! Oh yeah, and the amps were still clipping.

So anyway, my question goes out to the DJs on the forum, was this just a one off experience or is the situation like this in lots of clubs? I assume the bigger more savvy venues have great sound?

How much control does a DJ with a lappy and Live have over the audio?

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:09 pm

Its a vicious circle. Crap DJs who know no better have been turning up the volume for years, and fed-up PA guys have been putting all sorts of system processing and limiters on their PAs to protect their equipment.

So the un-informed DJ pushes the desk even HARDER to get up to utter maximum peak level i.e. the level the previous DJ had it on just in order to get some sort of "thump" and get the hihats to penetrate the system compressor, the system compressor clamps down . . . and so on ad infinitum.

In places where the sound is crap it has been my experience that this is usually the case. People have mindlessly wrung the system out, and the venue has taken the easy option of mindless system compression. In places where the sound is AMAZING, skilled DJs know not to overdrive their mixer, and the (knowing, informed) PA guy trusts them not to, either, and opens up the headroom on the system - result: happiness all round.

Regarding control over the system, it all depends on the particular gig. Some places are amazing with a helpful PA guy you can talk to beforehand to work out the best way to put on the best show, and sometimes you just have to put up with the situation you walk into. The more you respect other people, the more respect you get. But hey that's life.

my2c

tomperson · Post by **tomperson** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:12 pm

Indeed. Most of the last gigs I've been at didn't have such a good sound, and DJs seem to feel totally comfortable with their mixers measuring red ALL THE TIME, which is totally awful. Horrible, distorted highs, lows that are just about breaking the speakers apart...a disaster...Most of them I think don't realise about how much their sound is suffering, and probably don't have the knowledge so as to notice...

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:13 pm

a club near me spent about 120k on a rig, determined to get ultra sound. spent more cash flying in a specialist sound engineer to do analysis and set up the rig to eliminate bad frequencies. This is a powerful high end rig with computer controlled realtime analysis for crowds and damping. 60k of tight sound in a room which holds about 250 people, so it should be fanastic right?

My old mate who I was in a band with runs the bands / FOH / djs in this particular venue , he advised sticking a multiband limiter in the amp rack across the main stereo input , but the specialist treated him with disdain, every comment my mate made was talked down - there was a trail of nodding people whenever the specialist talked about transparency and detail. hmm, my old hairy mate decided to keep quiet, watch what happens he said.

come the opening night some big name DJs come to play the room, big name DJS who order a particular big name mixer and setup, a graphic eq and some other shit.

When the second mr Big comes to play his coke fueled brain decides more power is needed, so sets his mixer on 11 and puts the bass on the eq on 11 and the master gain on the eq on 11.
like 40db of gain into the system. like a 60k rig wasn't loud enough with 0db going in - they wanted a distorted squarewave at 60k. nice!

suddenly the specialist audio guy is getting all freaked "what is happening, why would he do that, someone tell him he is ruining the sound !!!"

we sit around and laugh, we have worked with fucking DJs for ten fucking years and know how pig-ignorant they are. I can't even begin to tell you of the general ignorance.

So, by the time DJ number 3 comes on at 2pm with all the eq bands up full, the master up full, parametric sweeps on the desk... the specialist is asking if there is a limiter anywhere to save the precious equipment from destuction.

strangely there is. An alesis.

And it has sat across that stereo pair ever since then, that rig has been nailed down like a motherfucker. headroom clamped, sucking Dbs off those idiots. the rack in a locked room and the rack itself is locked, and on top of it is a separate box with one big dial marked 'bass boost', always set on '6' connected to nothing. Any night that DJs play, the next day the dial is found to be turned up to '10'

Moral:
no matter how nice the rig, if you have you average DJ playing throught it it will sound like shit. They have no idea about music technology, just coke fueled dreams of makin out with the honeez and playing the big man.
Why the hell would you let them destroy your gear?

Why bother putting the effort in - use replacable components, clamp the headroom and save yourself the bother of trying to get the money off coked up tools.
the amount of time we used to spend trying to get cash for exploded rig parts off dickheads who thought they were it, makes me glad I got out of that game.

djshiva · Post by **djshiva** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:25 pm

i have told more than a few sound guys to watch their shit when some "big name" djs went on. i know the routine, and i hate hearing everything go distorted cuz the rockstar wants to play in the reds.

i am sure i have prolly gotten a little outta hand a coupla drunken times, but for the most part i usually end up evening out the volumes and EQs to keep from mashing the levels. i want my shit to sound GOOD, dammit.

when are people gonna learn that LOUDER does not necessarily mean BETTER?

there have been a few times where a dj was maxing out the highs or volume or whatever, and i make it a point to walk up, look them DEAD in the eye, and turn down the offending knob. if i have to be an asshole to make a point, fine. better than frying the system (and everyone's ears).

Pepehouse · Post by **Pepehouse** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:34 pm

I´ve seen the same, the mixer is at +6 and everybody is happy and dancing despite the sound sucks and the moron dj is also happy cos he's rocking the room, people don't have ears I think.

hambone1 · Post by **hambone1** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:41 pm

A moron will always think louder is better...

tomperson · Post by **tomperson** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:05 pm

...And so we get to nowaday's LOUDER IS BETTER stupid stupid race, where all headroom and dynamics gets eaten by distorted sounds...

bravo!

minimal · Post by **minimal** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:39 pm

that demonstrates the high munber of hearing damaged party goers and Djs / live performers.
It's kown that the first damages in the hearing occur in the high frequency range, that's why lots of dj have to turn the high fully up -if not they just don't hear them. As for the crowd, how many are soo wasted that a kick is enough to keep them dancing all the time? Leave it alone they think at the sound quality.

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:26 am

System compression is my band's special nemesis. We do a live 16-track, down to stereo mix on stage. We are a dub-based band, so our sound is bass-heavy, and because we are not churning out maximised stereo mixes, our signal is inherently a bit quieter, yet with the occasional transient peak (as is the dub way).

We always try to talk to the sound engineer about what we do, tell them we know what we are doing, we respect their PA, and ask not to be massively limited but (especially in the UK, I'm afraid) we often get shafted by system compression. Often there is a separate compressor on the monitors, as well, so we are doubly fucked. When we do a breakdown, ie drop out kick and bass, and suddenly all the mids and tops come rushing back, and when we drop the bass and kick back in (supposedly making the mix "bigger") and in fact it gets smaller, we know we've been done over again.

Although its not always like this everywhere, by any means, it is the most distressing thing about coming half way around the world only to be hamstrung by recurring ignorance.

whew, feeling better now......

siddhu · Post by **siddhu** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:27 pm

Angstrom wrote:a club near me spent about 120k on a rig, determined to get ultra sound. spent more cash flying in a specialist sound engineer to do analysis and set up the rig to eliminate bad frequencies. This is a powerful high end rig with computer controlled realtime analysis for crowds and damping. 60k of tight sound in a room which holds about 250 people, so it should be fanastic right?

My old mate who I was in a band with runs the bands / FOH / djs in this particular venue , he advised sticking a multiband limiter in the amp rack across the main stereo input , but the specialist treated him with disdain, every comment my mate made was talked down - there was a trail of nodding people whenever the specialist talked about transparency and detail. hmm, my old hairy mate decided to keep quiet, watch what happens he said.

come the opening night some big name DJs come to play the room, big name DJS who order a particular big name mixer and setup, a graphic eq and some other shit.

When the second mr Big comes to play his coke fueled brain decides more power is needed, so sets his mixer on 11 and puts the bass on the eq on 11 and the master gain on the eq on 11.
like 40db of gain into the system. like a 60k rig wasn't loud enough with 0db going in - they wanted a distorted squarewave at 60k. nice!

suddenly the specialist audio guy is getting all freaked "what is happening, why would he do that, someone tell him he is ruining the sound !!!"

we sit around and laugh, we have worked with fucking DJs for ten fucking years and know how pig-ignorant they are. I can't even begin to tell you of the general ignorance.

So, by the time DJ number 3 comes on at 2pm with all the eq bands up full, the master up full, parametric sweeps on the desk... the specialist is asking if there is a limiter anywhere to save the precious equipment from destuction.

strangely there is. An alesis.

And it has sat across that stereo pair ever since then, that rig has been nailed down like a motherfucker. headroom clamped, sucking Dbs off those idiots. the rack in a locked room and the rack itself is locked, and on top of it is a separate box with one big dial marked 'bass boost', always set on '6' connected to nothing. Any night that DJs play, the next day the dial is found to be turned up to '10'

Moral:
no matter how nice the rig, if you have you average DJ playing throught it it will sound like shit. They have no idea about music technology, just coke fueled dreams of makin out with the honeez and playing the big man.
Why the hell would you let them destroy your gear?

Why bother putting the effort in - use replacable components, clamp the headroom and save yourself the bother of trying to get the money off coked up tools.
the amount of time we used to spend trying to get cash for exploded rig parts off dickheads who thought they were it, makes me glad I got out of that game.

Dude,

This needs to be part of a stand up comedy routine! It's a fukin great piece of writing.

A real good morning laugh.