Operator - The benefits of having

Eraldo Bernocchi · Post by **Eraldo Bernocchi** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:02 am

I got Operator some months ago and to be totally honest...I don't like it.
I tried it and to me seemed great...once bough I had to admit I throw away
my cash.
sounds too cold for me, really cold.

YILA · Post by **YILA** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:07 am

when you cant carry your nord lead around - operator is invaluable - its actually really nice sounding when you add some other effects to it and tweek your sounds.

ekko · Post by **ekko** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:08 am

dazzer wrote:@ ekko

(Not said in sarcasm, truly) what's worse about ableton compared to other companies? They charge for upgrades? I guess other companies do too. Or is is that they produce new versions too frequently?

No need to apologize for expessing a view. I won't be uipgrading for a while either. Just interested to hear what your gripe is, cos from your post it isn't really clear ("Live is the only program...")

Fair question, and yes, I guess I was being vague.

To clarify, yes, it seems that rather than purchasing Live, what we have here is a yearly "subscription" to Live, and every summer we're forking over $130 or so to stay current.

Now, do I put $130/yr into my "real" instruments? Perhaps my bass, but only because strings are so expensive...but not my guitars nor my keyboards nor even my computers.

So I guess I can't justify sending the Abletons $130 every year to stay current. Perhaps I'd feel better about it if they did a free "5.5" update with a few new features every once in a while. (The Propellerheads earned a ton of respect from me when they did their Reason 2.5 release...not to mention the free refills they toss out there from time to time...)

Probably not any clearer, eh? I think I need some coffee.

David · Post by **David** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:21 am

i fired it up last night in demo mode, just used the most basic sound and adjusted some envelopes and a few parameters, very quickly i arrived at a very interesting sound, simple, but very nice sounding, and definetly its bass sounds are ideal for electronica. i think with just operator, simpler, impulse and the built in fx you really dont need much else to make decent tunes. its all there if you want it and have the time to spend diving in a bit, i think.

musick · Post by **musick** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:34 am

Eraldo Bernocchi wrote:I got Operator some months ago and to be totally honest...I don't like it.
I tried it and to me seemed great...once bough I had to admit I throw away
my cash.
sounds too cold for me, really cold.

Try a Saturator as post Fx....

dj donnyman · Post by **dj donnyman** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:14 pm

Thanks guys, your opinions on operator are greatly appreciated, I'm gioing to hold back on buying it or any other synth for the moment. I think the main thing I have found from the points that were made regarding operator, is not that operator is no good but rather it is a bit over priced. It definitely appears to have it's good points, and I guess some bad points, although I guess you could find bad points with those synths that have been mentioned by some of you. What I have learnt is that if your struggling to make your mind up on buying something, it's best not to jump to hasty decisions and that's why I will hold back on buying at the moment. I think that if ableton operator was half it's current price, I would not hesitate to buy it, but at the moment I don't think I can justify purchasing operator.

earsmack · Post by **earsmack** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:21 pm

While reading this thread I discovered http://www.alphakanal.de/snipsnap/space/Automat for the first time - really nice - and free! Check out the Sineshine Beatbox preset - pretty cool. Thanks to whoever it was that posted about it.

jngpng · Post by **jngpng** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:22 pm

Are Operator licenses transferrable? If any of you chaps who bought it and didnt like it want to sell - drop me a PM.

4am · Post by **4am** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:42 pm

i have bought it but don't use it...
my idea was to use it when playing live
but, at least for me, it is not enough stable
and cpu friendly to use it on stage.
but it still sounds ok!

thelike5 · Post by **thelike5** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:10 pm

Not that this is breaking news but Native Instruments FM7 is now $99...

If that dosen't influence the Vsti buying public then I suppose nothing else will...

forge · Post by **forge** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:19 pm

thelike5 wrote:
rahlo wrote:
Robert Henke makes some ridiculously amazing sounding stuff using just operator and ableton fx. So, what you're able to get out of it soundwise is dependant upon how willing you are to roll up your sleeves and learn how it does what it does. Guess that goes with anything, hunh?

M. Bréqs wrote: Advantages of Operator:[/b]

1. It's the damn easiest FM synth I have ever seen. Nothing else is as simple to program decent FM

Which one is it? .....

well, it is both, and the reason is it is an FM synth packaged more like an analog subtractive synth - FM is really not for the faint hearted

IMO where Operator is let down by it's presets because in reality the closest comparison to operator is FM7, which already has FX on it and has a pretty kick arse library of presets - so you load it up and it rocks - which I'm sure alot of people do when they load FM7 - they probably tweak in a far more subtle way for the simple reason that it can get so complicated

but if you get into the modulator/carrier pages and start messing around with all those numbers you can easily come unstuck and lose where you are

Personally i'm a bit bewildered by FM synths at times - th ewhole concept is definitely far geekier than simple subtractive waveform->filter etc

IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING then operator is probably the simplest FM synth, and you can tweak and get some awesome sounds, but I think in order to tweak Fm synths at all you have to try and get some grip of what FM is about

and a couple of people have mentioned the filter - you have to check the envelope settings etc - also the lfo - there are a few settings that can affect what it does - sometimes you load a preset and the filter doesnt seem to do anything because of the way everything is set

I still get confused by operator at times - in some ways it's all right there in front of you, but if you're used to something like Pro-53 you can get confused and think it should behave the same

I love operator - but sometimes it throws me off course - but it's still by far my most used synth

The debate was always about the money

M. Bréqs · Post by **M. Bréqs** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:39 pm

rahlo wrote:
thelike5 wrote:
rahlo wrote:
Robert Henke makes some ridiculously amazing sounding stuff using just operator and ableton fx. So, what you're able to get out of it soundwise is dependant upon how willing you are to roll up your sleeves and learn how it does what it does. Guess that goes with anything, hunh?

M. Bréqs wrote: Advantages of Operator:[/b]

1. It's the damn easiest FM synth I have ever seen. Nothing else is as simple to program decent FM

Which one is it?
Those two statements are not mutually exclusive. Even something as easy to grasp as Live or GarageBand still requires some digging to understand the how's and why's of its own peculiar functionality.

Plus, M. Breqs is one of the most mentally capable people I've ever met. What's easy for him to wrap his head around can take normal cats like me a minute or two to come to grips with.

Awwww, shucks! Thanks Rahlo!

Anyways, Operator is very capable. As far as FM synths go, the FM-7 from Native Instruments is more capable, but programming it is like doing calculus with roman numerals. So, in comparison the Operator is much easier.

Next up, buried within that "ease" is an amazing set of sonic possibilities. It's like chess - easy to learn (kids can play it), but very difficult to master. There is (virtually) no theoretical limit to the number of possible chess games you could play, just as there is (virtually) no theoretical limit to the crazy sounds you can squeeze out of operator.

That said, if you want a lead or a bass, you can start with a patch and program a simple, useable one if you understand the absolute basics of FM synthesis.

Some tips for Operator:

1. Look at the little "routing diagram" that operator gives you to show your oscilators. The ones at the bottom are the "sound makers", the others are the "wierd-injectors" (technically known as operators).
2. If you want strangeness, detune your "wierdos" from your "sound makers" significantly, and keep the volumes roughly equal.
3. If you want more traditionally synthesized sounding things (basses and leads and some semi-analog sounds) then either keep your "wierdos" close to the same tuning, or keep their volumes down way low compared to the "sound makers".
3.A. If your "wierdos" are way off from your "sound makers" in tuning but are at very low volume, you'll get a high end digital fuzz on the top of your sound.
3.B. If your "wierdos" are close to your "sound makers" in tuning but at higher volume, you're more likely to get grumbling or warbling.
4. Considering the points above, consider putting envelopes or LFOs on your "wierdos" to change the character of your "sound makers"
5. Expect the Unexpected. Using Operator will generate unpredictable sonic results when you change your "wierdos".

Hope that helps...

deva · Post by **deva** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:05 pm

ekko wrote:
dazzer wrote:@ ekko

(Not said in sarcasm, truly) what's worse about ableton compared to other companies? They charge for upgrades? I guess other companies do too. Or is is that they produce new versions too frequently?

No need to apologize for expessing a view. I won't be uipgrading for a while either. Just interested to hear what your gripe is, cos from your post it isn't really clear ("Live is the only program...")
Fair question, and yes, I guess I was being vague.

To clarify, yes, it seems that rather than purchasing Live, what we have here is a yearly "subscription" to Live, and every summer we're forking over $130 or so to stay current.

Now, do I put $130/yr into my "real" instruments? Perhaps my bass, but only because strings are so expensive...but not my guitars nor my keyboards nor even my computers.

So I guess I can't justify sending the Abletons $130 every year to stay current. Perhaps I'd feel better about it if they did a free "5.5" update with a few new features every once in a while. (The Propellerheads earned a ton of respect from me when they did their Reason 2.5 release...not to mention the free refills they toss out there from time to time...)

Probably not any clearer, eh? I think I need some coffee.

Most software is like that. It is up to the user to discipline themselves to buy according to their own needs and wishes. It is not Ableton's fault if you upgrade every year, and then are not happy that you did.

But really, there is no problem, just skip 6 and buy 7 in a year or wait til 8, or just keep using 5

You mentioned not having to spend money on your guitar every year, but that is not a great analogy because the guitar maker does not give you a better guitar every year.

Just don't upgrade if it upsets you to do so and you do not feel like you receive worthwhile value.

cheers

[/i]

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:31 pm

Operator kicks ass without a doubt. People just can get over the price thing.
But they don't see it clearly, because they have no clue how well Ableton is at refining their creations. (if Live is anything to go by

)

How many soft synths developers make you pay for every significant upgrade to the synth?
Figuring Operator is integrated in Live, Ableton cant charge people for an upgrade for operator. Only for the ugrade to the next major version, Which may or may not contain improvements to the synth (live 5 did).

It's one way to look at it...

Robert Henke · Post by **Robert Henke** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:38 pm

Wow. four pages !!!
Is this the annual Operator discussion wave?

No synthesizer will ever make everyone happy. Different people have very diverse ideas about how it should be. This is why we all can appreciate a selection of different things, wine, music, friends, synthesizers. This narrows down the question to a very personal decission: Do i like it? Am i willing to pay the amount of money it costs?

A few words to Operator: Yes, it is less complex then an FM7. This is intentional because it makes it easier to get predicteable results. But it limits the pallette of sounds. On the other side it offers some features not offered by FM7. Features I did miss when using FM7. And in my (subjective) perception it sounds more brilliant and closer to the origial Yamaha machines, especially the SY 77.
But does an SY 77 sound better then an old DX 27? Well, it is much more flexible, but the DX 27 still goes on ebay for approx 100 EUR because it sounds like it does.
It might even make sense to use the Operator and the FM7 if you like FM in general. It is all a question of taste.

In the original design of Operator the filters came at the very end. A lot of amazing FM sounds need no filters at all. We realised that people want to use it also as a more classical subtractive synth, and added filters. In Live 6 Operator will have also 24 db LP /HP /BP filters, because we learned from customer feedback and from our own experiements that this enhances the instrument significantly.

( It will never beat a true analog simulation, but this was never intended !
This would need a very different type of oscillators with other sonic caracteristics, resulting in a _different_ but not _better_ instrument )

I obviously like the Operator a lot, and i still think it is a good instrument. But there are lots of good instruments.

So, we come to the topic of money. We are 50 people at Ableton, and the company needs to make money in order to create software. Operator is not cheep, but it is very well integreated and it will far more then any PlugIn benefit from any improvement of the host. Some of these things you will see in Live 6, where changes of the host add value to the instruments. Operator is not cheap i agree, but it is also not completly out of reach. And there are tons of alternatives, some of them for free, some of them for much less then Operator. Since we allow the use of VSTi and AU we do not force anyone to use our own instruments. You have to decide if it does the job for you or not. Some people need to wear the latest Nikepumaddidas shoes for 400 EUR, some people buy analog EQs for the value of a smal house.

Don`t get me wrong guys, I think these discussions are good, i just want to suggest being a bit less dogmatic. There is no right or wrong here.
And feature wishes / critical statement are allways welcome. (And sometimes are heard, see the 24 dB Filters in Operator in Live 6)

Here is another short example of a track using entirely sounds from Operator,
some of them re-recorded and reversed, but no other sources / instruments and no VST plugs / hardware.

http://www.monolake.de/mp3_parts/mono_Melting.mp3

( shit, hope this is no too much self promotion ... well, complain if you feel like it....)

Cheers,
Robert