[POLITICAL] - LEBANON

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Benshik
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Post by Benshik » Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:47 pm

elektrovert wrote:
Benshik wrote:
Whats hapenning in Israel/Lebanon these days is very sad for EVERYONE... everyone except the Hezbollah and some fundamentalist Jews who think war is gud
:(

I think you're missing the point.
The Hezbollah are kind of a scapegoat here.
Don't get me wrong, I don't support them or anything.
but they are of no real consequence either way, they're just a handy excuse for Isreal to have another go at their enemies.
I think you should take into account that in that part of the world, the smallest little action can sparkle a war. so to state that the Hezbollah is of no consequence is a bit like saying that lightning a match in a pool full of gas wont do anything...

but anyway the Hezbollah aint a harmless scapegoat. at all!
its an influencial and powerful international organization with ramifications in Libanon, Syria, Iran, etc Not to be underestimated...

atom_b
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Post by atom_b » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:05 pm

Machinesworking wrote: I don't know what Israel could have done differently, or what the arab world could have done differently, but I do know that I don't take any sides here, there are far too many variables.
Integrate but desintegrate. Since people migrate in this world, and that's since all of human's evolution - and as well all of beings' evolution derrives from migrating in one sense or the other.
So there can be no right to say I was first in place. And if one would think there is, and he'd use weapons to argue he'd say so in his full and sole rights - he couldn't be more wrong and would be doomed to be left behind. Well, that said, there exists no such thing as rightfulness, it remains just a stupid concept (of western mind BTW). So just integrate but desintegrate.

Peace again.
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glu
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Post by glu » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:10 pm

ahh.. some nice political/war conversations... I was getting bored of the " Live 6 doesn't have this..." or "...is good because of this..." finally some fuckin blood and arguments!


War is atrocious. There is nothing civilized about it, no justification for taking another's life. This is the current state of our self destructive nature. The seed of civilization contains the seed of self destruction. Pointing fingers or justifying murder is pointless, so point that finger up your bunghole if you play the blame game.

The U.S. is going to sit back and hope Iran assumes a supportive position For the "Judgement of God" (Hezbollah) so we can have a good excuse to move our troops in Iraq over to Iran and take over Persia's oil supply once and for all. We have strategically placed enough weapons in Isreal to blow the whole world up, so it shouldn't be too difficult getting mobilized for another war in the middle east. Most of those pictures of dead people came from weapons the U.S. probably sold or gave Isreal. The fact that we give billions of dollars to that country every year does not help our image in the middle east, as if the U.S. cares about that anymore...
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AdamJay
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Post by AdamJay » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:19 pm

sweetjesus wrote:adam, you are surely not crazy enough to think that salvador dali and the dalai lama had a lovechild are you.
well, thats what they told me on Fox News.

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Post by mike holiday » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:37 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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djadonis206
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Post by djadonis206 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:54 pm

AdamJay wrote:
sweetjesus wrote:adam, you are surely not crazy enough to think that salvador dali and the dalai lama had a lovechild are you.
well, thats what they told me on Fox News.

Speaking of Fox, my old lady opened up to me last night...almost made me cry

She's watching Oprah but I just got home and needed to eat a late dinner (class goes till 8:30pm) after school

I made it a point to TiVo The Simpson's because she doesn't like to watch re-runs of South Park

So I was like "Can we turn it?" she was like "Yeah, I got this saved."

ok

I open up the TiVo guide and being the good gentleman I am I click on The Simpsons instead of "Starvin Marvin in Outerspace."

we're watching the first 5 minutes of The Simpsons and she goes...

"You know, South Park is a better show than The Simpson's because they actually talk about real current events."

I almost cried - we still couldn't watch South Park so we settled on Anderson Cooper 360 or whatever it's called - yeah a lot of horrible shit is happening in the world

But it was like a moment in time stood still...I'm kind of crying right now
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dpel
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Re: [POLITICAL] - LEBANON

Post by dpel » Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:24 pm

sweetjesus wrote:***********!!!!PLEASE DONT FOLLOW THIS LINK IF YOU HAVE A WEAK STOMACH IN ANY WAY!!!!!!*****************

EXTREMELY DISTURBING

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lebanese_Victims.jpg

this is what's going on in lebanon and people are just standing around watching and simply getting their citizens out of there.

AND ANOTHER:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah
Why did you even start this?
What kind of satisfaction can you possibly gain from this?
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PLB
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Post by PLB » Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:54 pm

it's my understanding that isreal has been harrassed by syria and other countries in the area since it was created after WWII. and these countries were basically sided with the axis powers, which LOST in WWII.

i don't know who is right or wrong but why is isreal being so nasty in the first place?

just to clarify, i am asking, not trying to argue..

another question... when isreal was created and the palastinians displaced, what was the attitude towards them? were they forced to pack up and move or remain where they were and allowed to become a part of isreal?

i'm trying to figure out if the palastinians aggression was caused by initial isreali injustice or the other way around.

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Post by sweetjesus » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:55 pm

PLB wrote:it's my understanding that isreal has been harrassed by syria and other countries in the area since it was created after WWII. and these countries were basically sided with the axis powers, which LOST in WWII.

i don't know who is right or wrong but why is isreal being so nasty in the first place?

just to clarify, i am asking, not trying to argue..

another question... when isreal was created and the palastinians displaced, what was the attitude towards them? were they forced to pack up and move or remain where they were and allowed to become a part of isreal?

i'm trying to figure out if the palastinians aggression was caused by initial isreali injustice or the other way around.
the truth gets lost in the detail my friend, so much has happened since then tit for tat back and forth and to answer dpel, knowledge is power and i felt that most mainstream media aren't giving a balanced view of the situation and most of all they're not taking a step back and asking the real questions 'how can we fix this and NOW' .. some of it will start by the world realising that both sides are aggressors and innocent people are being lost and something needs to be done.

how will you explain to your kids when they ask "daddy, why are those people throwing rocks and rockets and bombs at each other?"... "why have they been doing this for 80 years?" would you like to face them and say that its been happening for almost a hundred more years than needed because your generation also did not stand up and do something?

even if im doing it while sitting down in front of a bunch of synths, from the luxury of my studio, id like to at the very least be able to say to my kids 'i tried to tell people violence sux and it should be stopped, but nobody listened'.

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Post by djshiva » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:14 pm

i just want people on all sides to be able to live.

i can't even start on the politics of it right now, because i am just overwhelmed by the sheer disregard for human life (on both sides).
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M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:24 pm

PLB wrote:another question... when isreal was created and the palastinians displaced, what was the attitude towards them? were they forced to pack up and move or remain where they were and allowed to become a part of isreal?

i'm trying to figure out if the palastinians aggression was caused by initial isreali injustice or the other way around.
Well, the Palestinians were invited to participate in the negotiations after WWII when the creation of Israel was being considered.

The United Nations General Assembly proposed the partition of Palestine into two states, an Arab state and a Jewish state, with Jerusalem to be under United Nations administration. Most Jews in Palestine accepted the proposal, while most of the Arabs in Palestine rejected it at the urging of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Arabia and Jordan. In fact, the Palestinians refused to participate in negotiations (and thus in my opinion forfeit their right to bitch about Jewish immigration and the creation of Israel, but hey, that's what you get for taking an all-or-nothing approach).

Violence between Arab and Jewish communities erupted almost immediately. Toward the end of the British mandate, the Jews planned to declare a separate state, a development the Arabs were determined to prevent. On May 14, 1948, the last British forces withdrew from Palestine, and the Jews, led by David Ben-Gurion, declared the creation of the State of Israel, in accordance with the 1947 UN Partition Plan.

So, initially the (soon to be) Israelis invited the Palestinians to share the land. The Palestinians rejected them, and violence broke out on both sides - Freedom fighters / terrorists of both ethnic groups fought over land. Exactly who was right depends on who you ask...

Oddly enough though, there were literally more than a million jews in Palestine before the creation of Israel... Draw your own conclusions from this.

The Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi, Jordanian, and Lebanese militaries immediately attacked in 1948 immediately after the creation of Israel. The Israelis fought back, and captured territory that the UN never intended for them. The Palestinians, who the Israelis had invited to live with them in Israel or create their own state on their own land (depending on which side of the line they lived on), fled the war at the urging of the Arab world. They became the refugees.

Essentially, the Arab world promised the Palestinians that they would destroy Israel, so don't get too comfortable, just sit tight in those refugee camps - Don't worry, you'll move home as soon as this war is won.

Unfortunately for the Palestinians, the Arab world wrote checks that they couldn't back up. The Israelis won in 48. And again they defeated the Arab attackers in 56, 67, and again in 73. Each time Israel was responding to aggression, as the Arab world was super pressured to "DO SOMETHING" by the Palestinians still wasting away in Refugee camps.

So, the Palestinians got screwed, but mostly by their Arab "friends". Shit, with friends like these, who needs enemies?

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Post by sqook » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:30 pm

Who wants to take bets as to when the first Hitler/Nazi reference enters this thread (excluding this post)? I'm going to bet page 8. Winner gets a free dönner... prize will be delivered in person. :)

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Post by M. Bréqs » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:35 pm

...I should also add that I am critical of Israel.

They had no business SETTLING the territory they captured in '48 and '67. That territory was supposedly captured to act as a military buffer zone for a tiny country against aggression.

But by settling it, Israel no longer had a buffer zone around her borders... She just extended the borders outwards. So, they fucked up twofold:

1. They now were forced to protect the settlers, and lacked the "buffer zone" necessary to do so, and
2. They squandered international goodwill by going against the original UN plan and occupying territory they weren't entitled to.

That said, the Israelis started what's known as "Land for Peace", a self initiated deal where they would withdraw from major chunks of land (not all but most of the territory captured in 67). All they asked for was the opportunity to negotiate.

I place 100% of the blame on the current crisis on Hamas, and Hezbollah (for being religios fanatics bent on destruction) and to a lesser extent Fatah (for being such fucking corrupt idiots). Israel, despite historic wrongs, extended the olive branch of peace, and got rockets instead.

Fine then. If that's they way they want it, so be it. Israel tried the peaceful approach and was "rewarded" with over 1000 artillery attacks and dozens of suicide bombings since 2000. Israel has no choice but to eliminate the threat...

...Unfortunately for the Palestinian and Lebanese people, the threat has camped out and staged attacks from within civilian areas. Each civilian death is (in my opinion) the fault of the Jihadists.

As I stated earlier:

1. The Israeli Defence Force avoids civilian casualties as much as possible, and regrets and mourns civilian casualties to the other side when they occur.
2. Hamas, Hizbollah and the PLO factions all TARGET civilians intentionally, and REJOICE when civilians are killed.

Israel has the moral high ground in this one.

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Post by kineticUk » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:39 pm

Lookout kids its another OT political post ...

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Post by djadonis206 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:39 pm

sqook wrote:Who wants to take bets as to when the first Hitler/Nazi reference enters this thread (excluding this post)? I'm going to bet page 8. Winner gets a free dönner... prize will be delivered in person. :)
I have homework to do, unfortunately...
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