[POLITICAL] - LEBANON

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:44 am

stinky wrote:
noisetonepause wrote:nteresting only so far as to make himself look like a twat.

As someone who's read a few books and talked to a few people, all I can say is that anyone who says 'women are circumcised in the Middle East' deserves no further attention.
That's right, go read a few more books. It may help you. In fact, did you read any of the links I sent you in the last post on that subject? Man, you're truly ignorant if you think it doesn't happen.
All the links on the web won't change the fact that I could easily get the first 10,000 middle eastern muslims to register on this forum and tell you just how wrong you are.

Freedom of speech is wasted on people like you.
Suit #1: I mean, have you got any insight as to why a bright boy like this would jeopardize the lives of millions?
Suit #2: No, sir, he says he does this sort of thing for fun.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:55 am

women are circumcised in the Middle East
First of all, you're paraphrasing, and that's not what i said. I said that tolerate those types of abuses, and the in certain countries, including egypt, iran, syria, etc.. the merits of performing these types of cultural operations have been debated, and regarded positively. You have a problem reading what i'm actually saying.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:00 am

diverdee wrote:That seems to indicate that you agree with the negative viewpoint & are arguing that a the disproportionate response is justified - as the fundamental, existential nature of arabs leves them unable to respond to peaceful overtures (which this viewpoint claims tehy would perceive as weakness) so Israel has to respond overwhelmingly & disproportionately - not because Israel wants to, but because it is the only language the arab is gentically or culturally predisposed to understand.
Just because it's a negative viewpoint, doesn't necessarily mean it's completely wrong. You jumped into a thread late in the game, and have taken alot of what i said out of context. Arab society is like that. It may be negative, but it's not wrong. It's a cultural thing. Disregarding that in these types of conversation are similar to saying that in Japanese culture dominance of male over female is not conducive to discussing their cultural traits. It may be negative but it's true.

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:02 am

stinky wrote:
women are circumcised in the Middle East
First of all, you're paraphrasing, and that's not what i said. I said that tolerate those types of abuses, and the in certain countries, including egypt, iran, syria, etc.. the merits of performing these types of cultural operations have been debated, and regarded positively. You have a problem reading what i'm actually saying.
Not to derail the discussion, but feminism & the status of women & womens issues worldwide seems to have taken a ngative turn worldwide.
Fred Halliday Professor of International Relations at the LSE, and Visiting Professor at CIDOB, Barcelona (Whose book 'Islam & the myth of confrontation' is an excellent read, by the way) recently wrote a cogent article on this subject.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:08 am

diverdee wrote:are arguing that a the disproportionate response is justified
That's an inference your making that without merit... But, i sure as hell am going to argue that i don't agree with giving into any terrorism. Because IT WILL ALWAYS BE TAKEN AS A SIGN OF BEING WEAK, not compassionate. Nothing positive has ever occured by giving in to the demands of terrorists.

Please, don't be trite and take that to mean that i believe in the same loose definition of terrorism that has been manifesting itself. And, furthermore, i'd like to add that terrorism (against civilians) is in itself not a rational means of opposition to brutality. No one can morally rationalize that. Non-violence, in the face of violence, is the only way to gain the upper hand morally.

err_fatale
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Post by err_fatale » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:13 am

PLB wrote:it's my understanding that isreal has been harrassed by syria and other countries in the area since it was created after WWII. and these countries were basically sided with the axis powers, which LOST in WWII.

i don't know who is right or wrong but why is isreal being so nasty in the first place?

just to clarify, i am asking, not trying to argue..

another question... when isreal was created and the palastinians displaced, what was the attitude towards them? were they forced to pack up and move or remain where they were and allowed to become a part of isreal?

i'm trying to figure out if the palastinians aggression was caused by initial isreali injustice or the other way around.
the problem is simple, IT IS NOT THEIR LAND, and they stole it, and terrorized and murdered a lot of the native people, (and continue to do so, and it is not spoken about because they have their hands in the pockets of the media moguls here).
HOW DID THEY DO IT???? TERROR. MURDER. Just like the genocide of the native americans and so many others.
And in the process they created a lot of resentment towards themselves, and they are hated and attacked......Simple.

They started it, and my country funnels billions of fucking tax dollars to them while people are sleeping in boxes and eating out of dumpsters here.... ANd they will probably drag all of us into a long horrible war because they are greedy, stubborn, and sadistic.........
Last edited by err_fatale on Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:18 am

err_fatale wrote:the problem is simple, IT IS NOT THEIR LAND, and they stole it, and terrorized and murdered a lot of the native people, (and continue to do so, and it is not spoken about because they have their hands in the pockets of the media moguls here).
HOW DID THEY DO IT???? TERROR. MURDER. Just like the genocide of the native americans and so many others.
And in the process they created a lot of resentment towards themselves, and they are hated and attacked......Simple.

They started it, and my country funnels billions of fucking tax dollars to those fucking zionist pigs so they can live like royalty while people are sleeping in boxes and eating out of dumpsters here.....fucking pigs.
See, this is what i was talking about, diverdee... this kinda of mentality is not conducive. And, it's completely flat out wrong. THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO EVERY COIN.

err_fatale
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Post by err_fatale » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:21 am

WRONG. You cannot commit genocide and expect the victims and the survivors to let you live like a fat cat on their land, in their homes, while you continue to cripple them economically and technologically (including lack of proper medicl facilities), and continue to terrorize them, and not be pissed off.
Last edited by err_fatale on Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:23 am

regarding the Israeli characterisation of Arabs as only being culturally able to understand the use of force, this attitude seems prevelent in Isreali media discourse also.
Robert Blechers article Converging Upon War (worth readin in it's entirety) in the middle east report online makes reference to this, or at least a related characterisation of Islam as hateful & radical.
This is similar to the Bush administrations reductionist mantra of 'they hate our freedoms', because they are essentially'ignorant' & hate filled due to their essential Islamic nature, whilst taking no account of specific circumstances & grievances - this is understandable, but regrettable in U.S. politics though, given the huge influnce of what has come to be termed the 'Israel Lobby' - as investigated by Mearsheimer & Walt in their fairly recent article, which made huge waves in the states.
For many in Israel, the two fronts are conjoined in a war against a unified "axis of terror and hate created by Iran, Syria, Hizballah and Hamas," in the words of Tzipi Livni, the Israeli vice prime minister and minister of foreign affairs, "that wants to end any hope for peace." Ben Caspit, one of Ma‘ariv's leading columnists, put it more colorfully: "Israel is dealing with radical, messianic Islam, which extends its arms like an octopus, creating an axis from Tehran to Gaza by way of Damascus and Beirut. With people like these there is nothing to talk about. The fire of a war against infidels burns in them." The only fitting response in this situation is a military one, claimed Ron Ben-Yishai in the newspaper Yediot Aharonot, in order to "create a new strategic balance between us and radical Islam." This belief has wide support among Israelis
As Blecher then writes:
But radical Islam is not the defining or unifying factor that links the south with the north: Hamas and Hizballah have different bones to pick with Israel. Hamas' struggle is against occupation, and more specifically, about how to achieve a mutual cessation of hostilities and formalize, in one way or another, its right to govern the territories of the Palestinian Authority as the Palestinians' elected government. Hizballah's goals in the current fighting are more limited: to secure the release of Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails while simultaneously flexing the movement's muscles to stave off pressure to disarm. By lumping together these different struggles, and tying them to Damascus and distant Tehran, Israel casts resolvable political disagreements as unfathomable, irrational hatred, thereby justifying its broad and violent offensive
This blanket labelling, with no historical context (Hamas for instance never carried out operation's within Israel & only started the horrendous practice of suicide bombing after the Baruch Goldstein massacre at the temple of the rock & Hizbollah rose to prominence in response to the illegal occupation of southern Lebanon by the Israelis & later their proxy the Maronite South Lebanes Army) is similar in many respects to the neo-con labelling of various different Islamic (some islamist, some fundamentalist) movements as 'fundamentalist terrorists', even though they had helped to fund & create many of them, especially in the resistance in Afghanistan to the Russian occupation). This is also similar to Israeli intelligence funding & suppport of Hamas initially as a foil to the more moderate & democratic native movements active within the first intifada & as a counter to the PLO (A freankensteins monster if ever there was one).
For more information on the idealogical links between the neo-cons (whose anti fascist idealogical father Leo Strauss basically proposed a form pf 'beign' & 'moral' fascism in order to stave off 'true' fascism') the three part documentary 'The Power of Nightmares: The Rise of the Politics of Fear' is a good starting point.

err_fatale
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Post by err_fatale » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:27 am

do your resaerch. Israel is WRONG, they have over a week killed a LOT of INNOCENT people and MAIMED MANY MORE OVER 2 FUCKING SOLDIERS WHO WERE SOMEWHERE WHERE THEY WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

they are a "supposedly" civilized nation part of the UN they have a responsibility to behave in a civilized manner, whereas the Hizbollah are a rogue organization prone to commiting terrorist acts.

Israel has now lowered itself to the same status as the Hizbollah, even worse, because they have a higher responsibility (but they have done this kind of thing again and again sice the beginning) Fuck those 2 soldiers. How many of our soldiers and citizens were kidnapped over time? We can't just go bombing a whole country because of it, like it or not. That is not how civilized nations act. Israel should be kicked out of the UN (like it would mean anything anyways) and considered a rogue terrorist state and they should not get one fucking penny of my tax dollars ever again. Fuck those assholes.
Last edited by err_fatale on Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

jonathono2000
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Post by jonathono2000 » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:33 am

computo wrote:you ignorant ass.

Hamas was founded by israeli intelligence.

AlQaeda was founded by US intelligence.

Quite likely same situation with Hezbollah.

Before you go spouting your hate filled rhetoric, maybe you should investigate international terror, rather than just regurging what you hear on Fox News.

The reason these groups are categorized the way you describe "underground", just goes to show, that these forces are just looking for excuses to murder large sections of the population of Middle Eastern Arab nations, even democratically elected ones.

You dont see the US starting wars with Mexico, even though THEIR military has kidnapped Americans, and escalated violence on the border...

Or perhaps somewhere in your Bush-bible-thumping brain, you think placing 100 National Guardsmen on the border is resolving the issue.
Sorry Noisetonepause but your assessment of myself couldn't be farther from the truth.

And as far as your assessment of what I said — that is your biased "best guess", that I can only argue is incorrect with my biased "best guess".

The thing is that I HAD the same perception of the situation that Stinky has but I have grown bitter. By the way Stinky you are briliant and without a doubt have the fairest and most basic understanding of what is actually happening — which I can't say for most of us here.

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:35 am

stinky wrote:
diverdee wrote:That seems to indicate that you agree with the negative viewpoint & are arguing that a the disproportionate response is justified - as the fundamental, existential nature of arabs leves them unable to respond to peaceful overtures (which this viewpoint claims tehy would perceive as weakness) so Israel has to respond overwhelmingly & disproportionately - not because Israel wants to, but because it is the only language the arab is gentically or culturally predisposed to understand.
Just because it's a negative viewpoint, doesn't necessarily mean it's completely wrong. You jumped into a thread late in the game, and have taken alot of what i said out of context. Arab society is like that. It may be negative, but it's not wrong. It's a cultural thing. Disregarding that in these types of conversation are similar to saying that in Japanese culture dominance of male over female is not conducive to discussing their cultural traits. It may be negative but it's true.
That's just a perpetuation of racial & cultural stereotypes that are used as justifications for (in this case) Israeli actions.
So what aother stereoptypes are true?
Lecherous itialians?
Priggish British?
Wine drinking arrogant gauls (french)?
Argumentative & prone to violence Irish?
The loud, obnoxious & insensitive american?
The lazy & slothful carribean?
The inability of africans (especially southern Africans) to rule tehmselves.
The avaricious & arrogant elistist jew/Israeli?
Hmmmm.....
So racial & cultural stereotypes are ok when they provide justification for your intended actions?
Interesting - you seem to be proving a point here.
Your characterisation of the arabs thus, which you previously said was not you personal viewpoint & you now seem to be saying is your personal viewpoint (but only because it is ostensibly self evidently true) could be used as evidence of you conforming to your own racial or cultural stereotype.
I know arabs, I have had dealings with arabs, as well as members of many other cultures.
Your viewpoint is bigoted however you try & sell it.
It's practically 19th century.

err_fatale
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Post by err_fatale » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:43 am

I have one question: if Hitler was evil for the genocide of the Jews in Europe, how is Israel innocent of doing the same thing to the Palestinians???

Do we fault the Jews for hunting down Nazi's with vengeance and seeking their death?

Then how do we fault the Palestinians and other peoples of the region surrounding Israel for acting out vengefully against Israel??????

How ironic that many Jews survived Nazi germany's evils only to help establish a nation who has been doing the same things to the vulnerable people of the region surrounding Israel.

PEOPLE KNOW YOUR HISTORY LEARN THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING.

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:47 am

stinky wrote: Please, don't be trite and take that to mean that i believe in the same loose definition of terrorism that has been manifesting itself. And, furthermore, i'd like to add that terrorism (against civilians) is in itself not a rational means of opposition to brutality. No one can morally rationalize that. Non-violence, in the face of violence, is the only way to gain the upper hand morally.
loose definition?
Is State terrorism included in your tighter definition.
Would you say that the constant sonic boom attacks of Israeli airforce jets over Gaza would meet the definition of terrorism (as ithey are meant to terrorise the poulation) the WHO have done some research into the psychological impact, especially on children.
Indiscriminate bombing of civilians?
In my opinion whether it is perpetrated by a lone suicide bomber, or by an Israeli airforce pilot of tank gunner - the result is the same.
Indiscriminate killing of civilians, causing terror & fear.
That is before we get to teh subject of collective punishment & the targetting of infrastructure vital to human life, especially in that particular climate & social circumstances.
What was that quote from Olmert regarding letting no palestinian sleep, for fear of something or other?
& the one from the army spokesman (the army that was claiming it was specifically targetting Hizbollah) that no lebanese would be safe? - A fairly true statement as it turns out, with families fleeing in terro being targetted by Israeli pilots.

M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:02 am

err_fatale wrote: They started it, and my country funnels billions of fucking tax dollars to those fucking zionist pigs so they can live like royalty while people are sleeping in boxes and eating out of dumpsters here.....fucking pigs.
...Man, you sure sound like a fucking racist. I don't want to hear from you anymore. "fucking zionist pigs?" Get off these boards, I don't want to see that again. At least paws can debate, all you and Computo can do is spout racist shit.

Be smarter.
err_fatale wrote: the problem is simple, IT IS NOT THEIR LAND, and they stole it, and terrorized and murdered a lot of the native people, (and continue to do so, and it is not spoken about because they have their hands in the pockets of the media moguls here).
HOW DID THEY DO IT???? TERROR. MURDER. Just like the genocide of the native americans and so many others.
And in the process they created a lot of resentment towards themselves, and they are hated and attacked......Simple.
You haven't read a single post I've made. Look back a bit, I discuss the history, refuting your claim that "they" stole the land.

Plus, It's not simple. For many reasons, but here's a fucking big one...

ISRAEL HAS NUCLEAR WEAPONS, THE MOST CAPABLE CONVENTIONAL MILITARY IN THE REGION AND THE STRONGEST ECONOMY. ISRAEL WILL NEVER CEASE TO EXIST.

The only solution is co-existance, DO YOU FUCKING GET IT?!?!?!? All this anti-zionist racism people like you spout only encourages Arabs to flush their futures down the toilet trying to bring about the impossible.

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