[POLITICAL] - LEBANON

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:52 am

4rest wrote:with that i have to say that judaism IS NOT A RACE nor is any other form of religion.....period!!!!
It's more appropriately and ethnicity, and as an ethnicity with a lineage, you could convert to Judaism, but you can't all of a sudden have relatives that have serial number tattoos on their arms, or gain some traits inherited from a middle eastern past....

i ask "why do you as a jew think so many different "tribes" have historically beat you down?"

i ask this because i can't think of a reason why but damn it there has to be some reason.....at least one would think.....or maybe that religion just has bad luck.... i don't know.
Look up Usury Laws and the popes of ancient times.... Europe was stricken with usury laws ordained by the pope that crippled the banking industry, basically any good christian couldn't loan money at a profit... The only other tribe that the christians (what are now called catholics) could even stomach in their prescience were the jews. Basically european kings begged jewish people in the middle east to migrate, then proceeded to blame them when the crown squandered the countries money on themselves etc... Same old story, the rich using the poor, and minorities against each other...... pogroms etc...
It led to a disproportionate amount of banking kingpins with jewish lineage, which racist fascists have used to their advantage to gain power and influence, the poor in general have historically been distrustful of banks, we get all kinds of cultural stereotypes from this.

ilia
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Post by ilia » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:12 am

17 pages, lots of accusations.
give me something constructive, you, smart electronic musicians.
we all agree there is a lot of hatered and animosity and bad history there.

if you want peace and stability, what would you - realistically - propose? what are the steps the major players could take - now - to get out of this cycle?

4rest
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Post by 4rest » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:19 am

damn Machinesworking......

frigging A great response!

now the question is how do we end this cycle?

deeper still can the human race rise to such a task?

forrest

4rest
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Post by 4rest » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:24 am

if you want peace and stability, what would you - realistically - propose? what are the steps the major players could take - now - to get out of this cycle?
i have said for years......"just for the fuck of it lets see what would happen if we "the men" let the ole ladies have a go at running the show!

i don't know of to many women that will send the kids to war but the old men....hell yeah.....cuz they want the young girls for themselves =)

Gyu
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Post by Gyu » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:27 am

jonathono2000 wrote:Hezbollah is to Lebanon as Al Queda is to Afghanistan.

These governments allow free agent quasi-miltitary groups to stockpile weapons, preach hateful propoganda, and participate in covert operations.

These governments allow the members of these extremist factions to participate in their legitimate government, create sub-governments based on radical religious ideals and, operate as a facist movement within a para-democratic country.

But then when these sub-governments grow beyond the bounds physically, militarily, or idealogically of their host government and create a disturbance to relative peace, start wars, perform acts of terrorism the legitimate governments claims that these people are acting within their jurisdiction upon their own volition.

Its the new tactic for governments that want to sponsor terrorsim and outright jihad under the surface but on top appear as if though they themsleves are somehow a victim of these orginizations they have given privelege to.

........................................................................................................
This is what the Neo-Conservative U.S. administration is effectively doing.

andydes
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Post by andydes » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:49 am

4rest wrote:
if you want peace and stability, what would you - realistically - propose? what are the steps the major players could take - now - to get out of this cycle?
i have said for years......"just for the fuck of it lets see what would happen if we "the men" let the ole ladies have a go at running the show!

i don't know of to many women that will send the kids to war but the old men....hell yeah.....cuz they want the young girls for themselves =)
We tried that one. Maggie Thatcher wasn't known for her wishy washy hippy attitude. The americans could try getting Condaleaza Rice in office next time if they think she'll be striving for world peace, but I wouldn't get your hopes up.

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:05 pm

What I find strange, but a recurrent theme when arguing/discussing this with people is the following fallacy, which has been repeated here again by stinky & m breqs.
People argue that Israel is using disproporionate force & other erguments regarding making peace with the palestinians & giving them a fair crack etc.
The 'defender' (if you will) of Israel in their responses keep alluding to the critics not accepting Israels right to exist, which isn't what teh critics are referring to at all.
It's like a preprogrammed response - criticism will be met with accusations of antisemitism & of the charge of no accepting Israels right to exist.
It crops up again & again, then if one accepts a statement with that underlying premise it can be later used in argument against oneself.
For the record - Israel is now a concrete historical entity, it's 'right to exist' can't be refused, it exists.
What is at stake is how it interacts with it's neighbours & whether it can exist in peace & come to a just settlement of the palestinian question & fully accept the awful history of it's finding, as many honest prominent politicians & historians have done.
The quotes earlier weren't just a ragtag bag of quotes meant to display Israel hate or somesuch, they were specific quotes dealing with answering that question of whether the land was indeed 'stolen' & of how Israel was founded, they were just Israeli politicians showing some honesty.
Israel can attempt to paint itself as the little guy facing the whole hostile, powerful Arabic world as much as it wants, but anybody with any understandinfg of strategic studies etc. can see that for the false picture it is.
Israel is powerful, with the virtual unquestioning backing of the worlds remaining superpower, where apaic & the rest of the israeli lobby have a virtual stranglehold on discussion of middle eastern affairs within the government & media & are now attempting to legislate for the same within the educational field - a mini ministry of truth, but only where the middle east & Israel is concerned.
Another Fallacy is the way the definitions of Arabs & palestinians are constantly shifted, one minute it's arabs - millions of them - virulent enemies of Israel, the next it is the shabby palestinians (who never really existed anyway according to Golda Meir) - a changing of focus & proportion to meet the needs of the current argument.
Israel has power, the palestinians don't, it's been that way for a while - but with the palestinians gaining the odd media coup when pictures of them being slaughtered & tortured occasionally break into the mainstream media.
Yet Israel sties to present a facade of them being equal in power, or even as the palestinians as being more powerful (the arab menace thing) & to present themselves as constantly besieged & in need of help.
Eternal victims, passive, only ever react to violence, never start it - & alwyas precise & proportionate with responses.
Lies.

M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:29 pm

diverdee wrote:What I find strange, but a recurrent theme when arguing/discussing this with people is the following fallacy, which has been repeated here again by stinky & m breqs.
People argue that Israel is using disproporionate force & other erguments regarding making peace with the palestinians & giving them a fair crack etc.
The 'defender' (if you will) of Israel in their responses keep alluding to the critics not accepting Israels right to exist, which isn't what teh critics are referring to at all.
You haven't read all of my posts then. I answered that.

Israel's response is not disproportionate. They have withstood random artillery barrages for years, and need to destroy Hizbollah's capacity to continue these attacks. The two soldiers were the "straw that broke the camel's back" so to speak.

This is the third time I've said this, and I'll make it really fucking big so maybe diverdee will actually read it:








Lebanese and Palestinian civilians killed by Isreali bombs are the fault of Hizbollah and Hamas respectively. These organizations conduct their bombing / rocket operations in civilian areas, intentionally using children and old ladies as human shields, and for their media value. To strike at Hamas and Hizbollah will inevatibly result in civilian deaths and injuries, but all are the fault of the aggressors, Hamas and Hizbollah. Get it?
diverdee wrote: Eternal victims, passive, only ever react to violence, never start it - & alwyas precise & proportionate with responses.
Lies.
Not lies. You lie. Nyah Nyah Na Nyah Nyah. Rather than point fingers and shout "liar" like a school child, try debating.

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:53 pm

So it's not Israels fault - they don't mean to kill civilians, it's just unfortunate that all the weapons etc. are stored in areas were civilians are resident - so the argument that they are 'dual use areas'?
What does it matter anyway, as Israel is not a party to the first protocol of the 1949 geneva conventions, whose 51st & 52nd articles article states that
The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack."

Article 52 adds: "Attacks shall be limited strictly to military objectives..."
They didn't become sigantories when the articles were updated in 1977 either.
Israel also isn't a party to the International criminal court, but that follows really, as according to Ariel Sharon:
Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.
Interesting, that puts Israel in a very significant minority regarding acceptance of international laws & norms.
It also may help make the picture somewhat clearer.

Anyways - does that make it ok for the hizbollah rockets hitting northern Israel, around Nazareth etc. where the Israeli military also stores weapons etc?

Whatever that's a tired, old argument & no matter how large you make the letters it doesn't change the fact that Israel is disproportionately killing civilians & deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure both within Lebanon & Gaza.
The U.N. Human Rights Commisioner (regarding both sides in the conflict) is now debating whether to class these as war crimes.
As stated above it's difficult though, as Israel is one of the few nations on the face of the planet that is non sigantory to the ICC & various clauses of the Geneva conventions.
I believe the term for that kind of behaviour is when one feels that they are above the law?

stinky
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Post by stinky » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:32 pm

diverdee, in all this israel-bashing (and you are israel bashing, you're not even considering that hezbollah, or the palestinians made any mistakes in this), you're not offering any concrete solutions, or justifying any actions to resolve the situation. As much as you don't want to admit, you're blind to the fact that if Israel continues to back, it will be just as large, or larger, of a target as it has been.

No, you're not acknowledging israel's right to exist, by spouting off all the propoganda that you do (you're justifying just as much violence as anyone)... you're just as much part of the propoganda machine as anyone on the right. You're not even looking at the other side of things.

I don't agree with assessment of this government as being just as violent as others. You posit that because Olmert and Peretz are not part of the military establish that their giving unbridled control over to the military. Well, of course you... you just want to see it that. There's no room to posit that because they're not part of the military establishment, maybe they're not allowing their general's to run free and asking them to be more restained in their actions.

How do you suppose Israel defends itself from rocket attacks, suicide bombings, kidnappings, and the like? By giving up Hezbollah prisoners with blood on their hands? By giving in to demands of terror? When will it end?

How do you fight an terrorist entity housed within a state that will do nothing to control this militia? It's Lebanon's fault that Hezbollah is allowed to run free in the south and constantly provoke Israel. It's both Iran and Syria's fault. Iran supplies with weapons, cash, and intelligence. Syria controls the lebanese government, and supplies Hezbollah with intelligence. It's a proxy war, and Israel is being fought from all sides, and is just as much the oppressed as the oppressor.

err_fatale
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Post by err_fatale » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:53 pm

I don't think we are bashing Israel or Jews here, at least I am not. I am not an anti-semite, but rather against all religion as it is the most divisive force ever in the history of the huiman race.

Including Islam and Christianity. I am against it all, and can only pray that future generations will continue the trend of giving up these useless paradigms and learn to live in harmony with one another based on the fact that we are all HUMANS as opposed to Jew, CHristian, Moslem, Hindu whatever. That shit i8s all DEAD. Move on, evolve....but not for a long time, I'm a fraid, the old guard will not give up it's post so soon.





as far as blaming Israel it is their fault as they came with Britain's military and money and drove out the indigenous peoples of the area of land known as Israel, killing, torturing, terrorizing these people until they got their way, and Israel continued this practice up until the present. It is well documented. In my eyes it is inconsequential what the Hizbollah and Hamas do as they are not recognized by the rest of the world as civilized nations, they are terrorist, fanatic Islamic groups. But, realize that the Hizbollah has done a lot for the people of Lebanon, so you cannot call this a black and white issue. I don't feel like going into this further here as it is pointless, but I will say that I am not racist, but I am against any religious sect or following that believes itself superior to the rest of humanity and uses this pretext to justify murder and terrorism, Israel included.



To the Lebanese and Palestinians, Israel are terrorists, to Israel and the West the Hizbollah and Hamas are terrorists......


BUT ISRAEL STARTED THIS WHOLE MESS AND THAT CANNOT BE CHANGED WITH ANY ACROBATICS OF WORDS OR REWRITING OF HISTORICAL EVENTS. The Zionists believed that their spiritual superiority gave them the right to kill non-Jews and steal land belonging to non-Jews, and that is wrong, no matter what. Terribly terribly wrong, yet they are defended in their actions because of their power, riches, and influence throughout the Western World. It is a pretty simple thing to understand if you want to open your eyes and see the truth.They lit the fuse. It was a bad thing that they did. period. study your history before you run your mouth.
Last edited by err_fatale on Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:57 pm

stinky wrote:diverdee, in all this israel-bashing (and you are israel bashing, you're not even considering that hezbollah, or the palestinians made any mistakes in this), you're not offering any concrete solutions, or justifying any actions to resolve the situation. As much as you don't want to admit, you're blind to the fact that if Israel continues to back, it will be just as large, or larger, of a target as it has been.

No, you're not acknowledging israel's right to exist, by spouting off all the propoganda that you do (you're justifying just as much violence as anyone)... you're just as much part of the propoganda machine as anyone on the right. You're not even looking at the other side of things.

I don't agree with assessment of this government as being just as violent as others. You posit that because Olmert and Peretz are not part of the military establish that their giving unbridled control over to the military. Well, of course you... you just want to see it that. There's no room to posit that because they're not part of the military establishment, maybe they're not allowing their general's to run free and asking them to be more restained in their actions.

How do you suppose Israel defends itself from rocket attacks, suicide bombings, kidnappings, and the like? By giving up Hezbollah prisoners with blood on their hands? By giving in to demands of terror? When will it end?

How do you fight an terrorist entity housed within a state that will do nothing to control this militia? It's Lebanon's fault that Hezbollah is allowed to run free in the south and constantly provoke Israel. It's both Iran and Syria's fault. Iran supplies with weapons, cash, and intelligence. Syria controls the lebanese government, and supplies Hezbollah with intelligence. It's a proxy war, and Israel is being fought from all sides, and is just as much the oppressed as the oppressor.
Just few notes - I do acknowledge Israls right to exist - as mandated by the U.N. & pursueant to the realtive articles.
There are concrete solutions, too lenghty to go into here - adoption & recognition of the prisoners statement & dsimantling of the apartheid wall & the stopping of building ostensibly illegal settlements in the west bank & East Jerusalme would be a start.
My analysis of the power of the military in the current Israeli administration is not actually mine, it's based on the work & opinion of much more educated & knowledgeable analysts of middle eastern & specifically Israeli affairs.
Releasing administrative detainess & the women & children locked in Israeli jails would also be a positive move.
Regarding Hizbollah within Lebanon - they ahven't been disarmed because a significant proportion of the population support them & it would likley be a prelude to a civil war, the situation there was very complex & not reducable to simplistic analysis.
Syria does not control the lebanes government, but certainly did have a great deal of influence there - the historical reasons for that are many - Israels 1982 invasion of Lebanon was certainly a contributory factor in Syrias involvement - again the situation is in reality far too complex to reduce to a few sentences on this forum.

err_fatale
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Post by err_fatale » Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:35 pm

I just pray for the people that are suffering it all makes me ill.,

stinky
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Post by stinky » Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:46 pm

diverdee wrote:Just few notes - I do acknowledge Israls right to exist - as mandated by the U.N. & pursueant to the realtive articles.
There are concrete solutions, too lenghty to go into here - adoption & recognition of the prisoners statement & dsimantling of the apartheid wall & the stopping of building ostensibly illegal settlements in the west bank & East Jerusalme would be a start.
My analysis of the power of the military in the current Israeli administration is not actually mine, it's based on the work & opinion of much more educated & knowledgeable analysts of middle eastern & specifically Israeli affairs.
Releasing administrative detainess & the women & children locked in Israeli jails would also be a positive move.
Regarding Hizbollah within Lebanon - they ahven't been disarmed because a significant proportion of the population support them & it would likley be a prelude to a civil war, the situation there was very complex & not reducable to simplistic analysis.
Syria does not control the lebanes government, but certainly did have a great deal of influence there - the historical reasons for that are many - Israels 1982 invasion of Lebanon was certainly a contributory factor in Syrias involvement - again the situation is in reality far too complex to reduce to a few sentences on this forum.
That's great and all, and i agree with most of what you said, but none of that is going to happen as long as Israel feels threatened. It's plain simple. I don't think it's too much to ask for Hezbollah and Hamas to stop provoking Israel. If they take the route proposed by Ghandi, than Israel will have no choice but to acquiesce.

I don't agree that Israel stole the land whatever anyone says. They were always jews there. During British colonial rule, jews bought up land from the arab and ottoman owners. When the Arab nationalists started to form during the 20's, they terrorized Jews with their fedayeen (suicide groups), just like today. As M. Breqs said, they were allowed to become part of the process, but their all or nothing approach, chose not to, and now their children are paying the price. Just as the children of Ben-Gurion and Dayan are paying the price for there decisions made. There have been massive mistakes on boths sides.

I never called err-fatale an anti-semite, and haven't used that term once throughout the thread. I will say he's a hate filled bastard that hasn't offered a thing to this conversation.

To Machinesworking
Machinesworking wrote: Well from what I understand the main thing that started it was French policy of not allowing religious icons or clothing in public schools. there might have been more to it, and I'm sure most of the people roiting weren't wealthy, but to say it was because the French are not treating them right is probably a bad call.
But then again, I'm talking to somebody who uses cultural stereotypes to make blanket statements about arabs, but has been arguing any point made that makes the Israelis look bad, as being anti Israel.
You can't have it both ways IMO. You can't rationally argue against cultural stereotyping when it comes to jews, yet use blanket statements to describe the Palestinians.
You know as little about history and foriegn culture as you do about current affairs. That's not what started the riots at all. The riots were started because of the deaths of two teenager in Clichy-sous-Bois, a poor suburb of Paris.

Please, educate yourself here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_urban_violence

as far as this goes:

"But then again, I'm talking to somebody who uses cultural stereotypes to make blanket statements about arabs, but has been arguing any point made that makes the Israelis look bad, as being anti Israel."

I've already answered that here:

"Just because it's a negative viewpoint, doesn't necessarily mean it's completely wrong. You jumped into a thread late in the game, and have taken alot of what i said out of context. Arab society is like that. It may be negative, but it's not wrong. It's a cultural thing. Disregarding that in these types of conversation are similar to saying that in Japanese culture dominance of male over female is not conducive to discussing their cultural traits. It may be negative but it's true.

How about this? Arabs willfully admit that they feel ashamed and humiliated after a millenia of being conquered abused in there own land. I wrote this previously in this thread, and i'll rewrite it here:
stinky wrote:Let me explain quickly by stating that the entire arab nation feels disenfranchised from a millenia of assumed humiliation. First, through the crusades, then the ottomans, then britain, then the US. Each time, those hostilities add to the general feeling of humiliation that the entire arab nation feels. Again, this will never go away. If it wasn't the jews, it would be something else, most likely the christians.

And one final thing... everyone who keeps stating falsely that this conflict between muslims and jews have been going on for centuries needs to reeducate themselves. This conflict was started by the British redrawing the lines in the middle east, but that's where it ends. Prior to that, jews and muslims were living in PEACE. In fact, during the crusades, they were fighting together, helping each other from getting slaughtered by the christians. So, if you really want to blame somebody, blame the fall of the roman empire and the rise of the catholic church, and the crusades, because that was the original source of these hostilities, not the jews.
In is one characterization a stereotype and the other a cultural trait? Is it better that it's actually admitted by the population, so that it can

again:
stinky wrote:It begs the question, where do you draw the line between cultural trait and cultural stereotype? Is it it's capacity as a negative trait that turns it into a stereotype, and something that should not be discussed rationally?
How about arabs who fully admit that their culture requires them to be aggressive because they willingfully admit taking advantage of the weak, within that culture? Are you going to call that person a rascist too?

M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:17 pm

err_fatale wrote:
study your history before you run your mouth.
I have a BA in History and I've started my MA. I focused my thesis on the post-colonial development of nationalist movements.

You should study histrory before you run your mouth.

...which brings up another problem - I think the problem is that err_fatale is studying "His history". What the heck is "your" history? I study "History", not "My history" or "your history" or "his history". That's how historical fallacies get entrenched, by people who think there is such a thing as "your history".

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