[POLITICAL] - LEBANON

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err_fatale
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Post by err_fatale » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:40 pm

then Mr Breqs, you are disagreeing with me???????

Or has your head inflated because of your degrees and you feel qualified to interpret and rewrite history like so many others?

so, let me hear you justify what Israel has done to the Lebanese and Palestinian people since it's establishment as a Zionist state.

go ahead, I'm waiting to hear it.

the problem is, sometimes people get so educated they like to make simple matters seem complex so that they can put on a show with an elaborate breakdown of who what when where and why some event took place, when it really boils down to what's right and what's wrong. And 2 wrongs still do not make a right, no matter how much verbal acrobatics take place.

M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:56 pm

err_fatale wrote:then Mr Breqs, you are disagreeing with me???????

Or has your head inflated because of your degrees and you feel qualified to interpret and rewrite history like so many others?

so, let me hear you justify what Israel has done to the Lebanese and Palestinian people since it's establishment as a Zionist state.

go ahead, I'm waiting to hear it.

the problem is, sometimes people get so educated they like to make simple matters seem complex so that they can put on a show with an elaborate breakdown of who what when where and why some event took place, when it really boils down to what's right and what's wrong. And 2 wrongs still do not make a right, no matter how much verbal acrobatics take place.
For your information, this is a complex problem - Only a dogmatist or a simpleton would say it's "Simple". But, rather than engage in ad hominem attacks, I'll actually answer you. Why? Because unlike some people on these boards, I'm intelligent enough to realize that not all questions are black and white. I do not justify everything done by Israel. They fucked up a number of times.

Anyways, here are my answers to some of your "simple" questions.

here I discuss where Israel is entitled to exist:
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ael#302090

and here I discuss why Israel is currently causing Lebanese / Palestinian casualties:
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ael#302238

...And here I criticise Israel's occupation of post-1967 land.
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ael#268489

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:42 pm

M. Bréqs wrote:
err_fatale wrote:
study your history before you run your mouth.
I have a BA in History and I've started my MA. I focused my thesis on the post-colonial development of nationalist movements.

You should study histrory before you run your mouth.

...which brings up another problem - I think the problem is that err_fatale is studying "His history". What the heck is "your" history? I study "History", not "My history" or "your history" or "his history". That's how historical fallacies get entrenched, by people who think there is such a thing as "your history".
M. Bréqs wrote:but, rather than engage in ad hominem attacks
Funny how M Breq accuses others of ad mominem attacks - ironic really.
Anyway, regarding history & theories of history, if you are really studying history at that level you will likely have come across the writings of Paulo Friere & Franz Fannon - among others whose thesis, which has influenced later generations of critical theorists, is that there are indeed multiple 'histories'.
The history of national movements etc. - that particular theoretical standpoint is immensely relevant to that particular field, as the redefiniton & exploring of a national or cultural movements history (often obliterated by occupiers etc.), language & culture is of the utmost importance.
Historians (as well as linguists) were important figures within risorgimento nationalist movements in western europe especially, helping to create that shared sense of identity.
The same is true in Africa, it's about being able to identify with your past & find 'buried' history, writers such as Ekwe Ekwe & Chinweizu have explored this, not to mention Walter Rodney.
The same is true of Integral Nationalism, with often violently competing histories & historical injustices (the balkans are a prime example of this).
Watching the recent documentary on the 'barbarians' & how they wer ehistorically portrayed to their detriment by the romans is a simple example of that.
Wish I could remember the title of one book in particular that I lent out & never received back which had an overview of that particular subject, nevermind.
strange that your BA & then MA level studies don't reflect thsi thinking, especially given the subject matter.

M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:30 pm

diverdee wrote: Anyway, regarding history & theories of history, if you are really studying history at that level you will likely have come across the writings of Paulo Friere & Franz Fannon - among others whose thesis, which has influenced later generations of critical theorists, is that there are indeed multiple 'histories'.
The history of national movements etc. - that particular theoretical standpoint is immensely relevant to that particular field, as the redefiniton & exploring of a national or cultural movements history (often obliterated by occupiers etc.), language & culture is of the utmost importance.
Historians (as well as linguists) were important figures within risorgimento nationalist movements in western europe especially, helping to create that shared sense of identity.
The same is true in Africa, it's about being able to identify with your past & find 'buried' history, writers such as Ekwe Ekwe & Chinweizu have explored this, not to mention Walter Rodney.
The same is true of Integral Nationalism, with often violently competing histories & historical injustices (the balkans are a prime example of this).
Watching the recent documentary on the 'barbarians' & how they wer ehistorically portrayed to their detriment by the romans is a simple example of that.
Wish I could remember the title of one book in particular that I lent out & never received back which had an overview of that particular subject, nevermind.
strange that your BA & then MA level studies don't reflect thsi thinking, especially given the subject matter.
I can honestly say I haven't come across Ekwe Ekew or Chinweizu... I heard of Fannon, but had no reason to study his material - he was very focused on Sociology / Psychology in colonialist conditions I believe, and it wasn't pertinent to my studies.

Walter Rodney was a writer with an agenda - he had something to prove, (namely that everything wrong with the universe is whitey's fault). I guess I could have studied him as a primary source from which to derive one person's viewpoint, but there is little OBJECTIVE academic value in anything he produced.

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:30 am

The thing we can all agree on I think s that it's not easy to pin the blame on any one faction. The only thing that I personally see as the major detriment to peace is the hard liners and fundamentalists on both sides... and admittedly I'm torn between which is more detrimental to peace.
I think it's probably the fundamentalist muslims that make it the most difficult, simply because with them in existence, Israel barley if at all has to answer to the west if there is any indication of fundamentalist involvement. Now that might have sounded like there is no blame on the part of the arab world here, but there is. In the west, when Pat Robertson sez something stupid, we don't act on it, granted it's not a war stricken environment, but still.
Israel has hard liners getting heard simply because there is the implicit involvement, in fact the most involved in resistance on the arab side, of the fundamentalists.. If they had no excuse for their actions, no suicide bombers or missiles, then after a while, they would have to back off.

The thing is, they probably wouldn't surrender land....... who knows though, it really needs to happen IMO.

I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of resistance builds up that's based on following strict guidelines of behavior etc. The thing that the fundamentalists don't get is that they have to think in terms of Israel existing in part because of it's ties to the west, so if you win the hearts and minds of the west, you win.

deva
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Post by deva » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:54 am

One of the numerous intelligent articles written about Israeli war crimes and the U.S./Israeli agenda.


The Shame of Being An American
By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS
Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration.

Do you know that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing in southern Lebanon? Israel has ordered all the villagers to clear out. Israel then destroys their homes and murders the fleeing villagers. That way there is no one to come back and nothing to which to return, making it easier for Israel to grab the territory, just as Israel has been stealing Palestine from the Palestinians.

Do you know that one-third of the Lebanese civilians murdered by Israel’s attacks on civilian residential districts are children? That is the report from Jan Egeland, the emergency relief coordinator for the UN. He says it is impossible for help to reach the wounded and those buried in rubble, because Israeli air strikes have blown up all the bridges and roads. Considering how often (almost always) Israel misses Hizbollah targets and hits civilian ones, one might think that Israeli fire is being guided by US satellites and US military GPS. Don’t be surprised at US complicity. Why would the puppet be any less evil than the puppet master?

Of course, you don’t know these things, because the US print and TV media do not report them.

read the rest if you like
http://counterpunch.org/Roberts07222006.html

deva
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Post by deva » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:10 am

Machinesworking wrote:The thing we can all agree on I think s that it's not easy to pin the blame on any one faction.
Actually, we cannot agree on that. The blame rests clearly on Israel and the U.S.

Israel is always defending itself and the people wo live on land they want are all terrorists. The propaganda is astounding, and of course, lies. It is good to remember that when Germany invaded Poland, it was declared as a necessary self defense.

The criminal Bush adminstration is intent upon war in the region and whatever necessary excuses are needed will be found or fabricated.

Scube
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Re: [POLITICAL] - LEBANON

Post by Scube » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:55 am

sweetjesus wrote:***********!!!!PLEASE DONT FOLLOW THIS LINK IF YOU HAVE A WEAK STOMACH IN ANY WAY!!!!!!*****************

EXTREMELY DISTURBING

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lebanese_Victims.jpg

this is what's going on in lebanon and people are just standing around watching and simply getting their citizens out of there.

AND ANOTHER:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah
Does someone know Jeremy Rifkin and his book "The end of work"? If he foresaw well...we are really in the shit. :cry:

Scube
Waiting for Qbits..

forge
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Re: [POLITICAL] - LEBANON

Post by forge » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:28 pm

Scube wrote:
sweetjesus wrote:***********!!!!PLEASE DONT FOLLOW THIS LINK IF YOU HAVE A WEAK STOMACH IN ANY WAY!!!!!!*****************

EXTREMELY DISTURBING

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lebanese_Victims.jpg

this is what's going on in lebanon and people are just standing around watching and simply getting their citizens out of there.

AND ANOTHER:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah
Does someone know Jeremy Rifkin and his book "The end of work"? If he foresaw well...we are really in the shit. :cry:

Scube
have you got any links?

I just logged on to this thread because I suddenly had a bad feeling - like a real feeling that there is something nasty going on in the world at the moment and this thing could escalate because the US has alreay stirred shit up in the region

It seems so well planned I really do think these bastards in Government are trying to start a 3rd world war

The other sign I was realising today is the housing boom - the sudden change in the scale of economics that has happened over the last 5 years al over the world is frighteningly like pre-depression times - big booms on housing and debt - getting everyone hooked in, then pull the rug from under their feet by causing a stock market crash - or major war

I dont know, writing it like that does sound a little conspiracy theorist, but I cant help but have some kind of feeling that the world as we know it is a house of cards

stinky
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Post by stinky » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:33 pm

forge wrote:It seems so well planned I really do think these bastards in Government are trying to start a 3rd world war
There's an interesting conspiracy read on that, if you're interested, here:

http://threeworldwars.com
forge wrote:the world as we know it is a house of cards
It's always been like that, there's no such thing as a "sure thing". Anyone who thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves.

sqook
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Post by sqook » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:41 pm

stinky wrote:
forge wrote:It seems so well planned I really do think these bastards in Government are trying to start a 3rd world war
There's an interesting conspiracy read on that, if you're interested, here:

http://threeworldwars.com
forge wrote:the world as we know it is a house of cards
It's always been like that, there's no such thing as a "sure thing". Anyone who thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves.
I dig the numerology twist... who knew that math was behind the New World Order all along!!

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:46 pm

stinky wrote:
forge wrote:It seems so well planned I really do think these bastards in Government are trying to start a 3rd world war
There's an interesting conspiracy read on that, if you're interested, here:

http://threeworldwars.com
forge wrote:the world as we know it is a house of cards
It's always been like that, there's no such thing as a "sure thing". Anyone who thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves.
Is It Time For A Third World War?
First, last week, David Twersky, the Tel Aviv correspondent for the New York Sun, a mouthpiece for the Israeli hardliners, compared the kidnapping of a corporal in Gaza to the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand in Sarajevo, the incident that triggered World War 1.



The parallel was planted.



Then, just yesterday Sunday June 16, New Gingrich, former House Speaker and still a darling of the GOP right, stated as a matter of fact on Meet that Press that a new war is already underway in the Middle East. It is, he insists, already a world war. “THIS IS, IN FACT, WORLD WAR 3,” he said for emphasis, with no regrets and an apparent longing to “bring it on.”.....
But there is more. The always aggressive and often obnoxious Prince of Darkness, Richard Perle, a leading booster of war on Iraq, is now lobbying the Administration to finish off the “axis of evil.” In print pieces and TV appearances, he is calling for a wider war now.



Hold on. Also on Meet The Press, Martin Fletcher, the NBC veteran Israel correspondent revealed that the Israeli war plan that is now being carried out is not simply a response to current risks or attacks, and that it has been FIVE years in the making. It was a plan just looking for a pretext.



“I think they will never say that publicly,” he added, explaining that this war plan that was not made by this current Israeli government but earlier by his Kadima Party mate Ariel Sharon & his generals. Fletcher says Tel Aviv calls it a “work plan.” He says it is being implemented “step by step.”



He added, “It will go on until someone steps in and stops them.”.....
Retired U.S. Air Force Colonel Sam Gardiner, who appears in my film WMD (Weapons of Mass Deception) has been running war games Vis a Vis Iran.



He wrote to me on the weekend after talking to Pentagon insiders. His

conclusion: “It would be hard to overestimate the danger of a major war,” he says. They say the Israeli soldiers they captured were fighting illegally in Lebanon.



He says be believes the US and Israel are coordinating their strategies.

While he believes that Iran is orchestrating Hamas and Hezbollah through Syria, he also says: “That does not mean that Israel is not taking advantage of the events. They have decided on regime change in Gaza and on punishing Hezbollah while establishing a buffer zone to prevent rocket attacks. As closely as the US and Israel have been coordinating, one has to assume coordination.”

stinky
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Post by stinky » Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:17 pm

I think this quote from Znet sums up this thread better...

Znet Article wrote:Two more soldiers were abducted and it was clearly proven that the deterrent power was not restored, while IDF failures repeated themselves. How does one erase those searing failures? On the backs of innocent populations. In Lebanon, the situation is more complicated. There is no Israeli occupation and no justification for provoking Israel. If Hezbollah is so worried about its Palestinian brethren, it should have first of all done something for the hundreds of thousands of refugees living in camps in Lebanon in conditions that are just as bad as those under the Israeli occupation, before it grabbed soldiers in their name.

But does the fact that Hezbollah is a cynical organization that exploits the misery of Palestinians for its own purposes justify the disproportionate reaction? The concept that we have totally forgotten is proportionality. While we're in no hurry to get to the negotiating table, we're eager to get to the battlefield and the killing without delay, without taking any time to think. That deepens suspicions that we need a war every few years, with terrifying repetition, even if afterward we end up back in exactly the same position.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle ... emID=10613


BTW, nowhere in this thread has it been mentioned that Hezbollah rockets are also killing arabs. Israeli-Arabs. Those rockets don't have quidance systems, so there lobbing point-and click missiles. It's sad that anyone can condone this.

I read Znet and other left-wing zine constantly, but i tend to find as much bias in them, as anywhere else... There is no balance, people look for their justifications, and don't really want to see possibilities.

As far as that other znet article you quoted, it's awash in innuendo and speculation. Sure, the third world war's coming. Why, because we've already had 1 and 2. Anybody can say that shit. Oh, come now. This isn't a thirld world war until all the major parties involved are fully mobilized and economies are embroiled. And that may just happen soon. But, until that time it's speculation and innuendo, and any one that wants to stand on their soapbox and start preaching can do so. You'll get an audience, surely.

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:52 pm

I didn't mention Israeli arab deaths?
Thought i'd posted about taht here, must be mistaking it for another forum discussion on similar subject matter.
The population of Nazareth is msotly arabs & has been the target of hezbollah attacks, it's reputedly an area of strategic significance for the IDF (weapons staorage etc.) - but that leads to another whole level of discussion, as do the claims by the arab population that they have no air raid sirens & that the Israeli government, when repeatedly pressed upon the subject of air raid shelters, has replied that the funding is not there.
The Znet article is a good one, the whole article is worth a read.
Hizbollah also has the motivation of alleged border incursions, the sabaa farms & the issue (which the lebanese government has also been unsuccesfully pressing for a resolution to in the U.N.) of lebanese p.o.w.'s still incarcerated in Israeli jails.
But[/i] there is definate suspicion that they have also got involved in this situation for reasons of their own.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:19 pm

diverdee wrote:The population of Nazareth is msotly arabs & has been the target of hezbollah attacks, it's reputedly an area of strategic significance for the IDF (weapons staorage etc.) - but that leads to another whole level of discussion, as do the claims by the arab population that they have no air raid sirens & that the Israeli government, when repeatedly pressed upon the subject of air raid shelters, has replied that the funding is not there.
Sorry, i wasn't referring to Nazareth, but your making a point for me. It doesn't matter what's stated, you're going to point to something completely negative that israel is doing to make the lives of <place here> unbearable. But, you're not going to acknowledge that israeli citizens have as much control over their goverment as you do of your in England, and or i do of mine in the US. I pointed this out in a previous post i made in this thread.
stinky wrote:Let me ask you this.. how many palestinians do you know first hand debate the morality of suicide bombings. Everyone i know justifies it. I 'can' justify it to some extent, but that's still not morally just, is it? Now, on the israeli side, there is a peace camp, and a full blown left that does protest emphatically against the government there. I ask you this... is that view being reciprocated unabashedly on the palestinian side? Can you honestly tell me that it is? Name the organizations that mirror groups like Peace Now but on the palestinian side, and are willing to protest openly (as they do in jerusalem and tel aviv almost weekly)?


There are other places in israel, especially in the north where jews and arabs coexist, in the same neighborhoods even, and they're the ones i was referring to.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060715/wl ... 0715205453

http://www.latimes.com/news/printeditio ... -a_section

here's one from nazareth:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060720/ap_ ... _s_arabs_1

I'd like to repeat something else that i've expressed in regards to your statement about Nazareth getting less funds than jewish towns. And, before you jump down my neck, it's a statement of expression, not one of condonement..

Discrimination happens in every country in the world, and there's nothing you can say that will change that statement from being less of a truth. It happens just as much in the US, as it does in Britain, and it does in France, as it does in Netherlands, etc, etc, etc..

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