[POLITICAL] - LEBANON

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:59 pm

stinky wrote:Dude, everyone's fucking prejudiced, to some extent.... that's my fucking point, if you can read my statements. It's a culture thing. What's acceptablet to one culture is not acceptable to another. If you claim not to be, than you're not living in the real world. Where you grew up, what you were/are subjucted to, that affects how you view things. You're making it out to be black and white, and that's not how it really is. I'm not racist the way you're inferring, by making a statement that in Arab culture, weakness is taken advantage of. I'm sorry, that is far from a racist statement, and you're too blinded by your ego to see otherwise. You're not even reading the entire thread, you're just jumping in when you feel like it to blantantly rant unobjectively. whatever..
First of all, I'm not down with trying to win this by resorting to belittling you, I understand that me calling you prejudiced seems harsh, but come on! I don't have a desk job!! There are no computers at my work! I can't post all the time, just when I wake up, and when I get off work to unwind etc. (or during writing). Also, I've been posting since the beginning of this thread, and I post when I disagree with you or others, not when I agree, out of respect for the person you might be debating.
Never called your posts ranting, so yeah fuck you a bit for that! :/
Machinesworking wrote:you're justifying harsh treatment by blaming the victim
stinky wrote:That's not what i'm doing in the slightest. You're not even being logical.
When you use cultural stereotypes in a thread about politics to explain and justify Israel's treatment of the arabs, then yes, you are blaming the victim. You have pretty much said that Israel's policy makes sense in light of a perceived cultural stereotype, but in no way do you infer that this is unjust or wrong. In fact you have flummoxed between denying you said anything like that, to defending it.
Basically IMO, if you can use cultural stereotypes on arabs, but think it's perfectly OK for Israelis to chant "anti semitic" whenever they feel like it, then you are working off a different set of rules than I am.
Machinesworking wrote: Making blanket statements about cultures is seriously dangerous, period!
stinky wrote:You're correct, but not understanding the differences in culture is just as dangerous. The whole world can't be a melting pot like in the US, and even in the US, Europe, every Western society, it's not working as well you'd like to think. Just throwing out the differences between us and saying that it's prejudice to notice them will foment intolerance under the surface that will manifest itself just as unjustly.
Negative stereotypes don't ferment tolerance IMO.

My basic beef here is that you are working really hard in this thread to make sure that any person who is anti Israel knows that there is a bias against Israel simply because they win their battles for the most part, and they are a new country etc.... those are great points IMO.
but when it comes to arabs, I feel you don't give them that consideration. You shouldn't use cultural stereotypes to judge the political actions of a country or people, THAT is where I see it as you being prejudiced. You can't even realistically say that the this whole "arabs will take advantage of weakness" thing is anything more than a reaction to the western expansionism in the territory. Given that it's possible that this is in fact the case, what good do you think will develop from Israel and the west perceiving arabs by a stereotype such as that?
Do you think that thinking along those lines will help to change the situation?

stinky
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Post by stinky » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:04 pm

Machinesworking wrote:You can't even realistically say that the this whole "arabs will take advantage of weakness" thing is anything more than a reaction to the western expansionism in the territory.
You've just made my entire point for me, by making that statement alone. And, by making that statement, you've agreed with i said, because i didn't say anything different than what you just said. In fact, i made that exact same statement several times.
Machinesworking wrote: Never called your posts ranting, so yeah fuck you a bit for that! :/
Fuck youself back.. everytime you come up with a lame excuse for calling me prejudice, i've explained why i'm not prejudice in the least. Diverdee even agreed with the points I made here:
diverdee wrote:Nyways - I personally thought stinky actually made some good points regarding cultural diferences, & may have been misunderstodd/misportrayed to a certain extent.
It's one of the first few things that's taught in conflict resolution courses - the whole different cultaural outlooks & languages thing, which (sorry a negative thing again in relation to language etc.) has worked to the palestinian's disadvantage in various negotiations & treaties.

Machinesworking wrote: When you use cultural stereotypes in a thread about politics to explain and justify Israel's treatment of the arabs
Please, show me where i justified Israel's treatment with you're so called cultural stereotype? I stated that that's how Israeli view Arabs, and i agree that Arabs general are intolerant of the weak in there perspective societies. Arab nations do have minorities (Kurds for example), and they're subject to the same intolerance, as well as protruding that intolerance, because it's part of their society, and that's where they live. Not understanding is a fundamental flaw in most left leaning (which i AM a part of) arguments. It's not a racist statement and i'll explain why now, simply: The same statement that you made about blacks could also be applied to latinos.. they were also applied to Italians, and the Irish at the turn of last century, before they became higher class, and the intolerance and bigotry were subjected to other minorities, for instance, latinos. So, it's not a racial thing. It's a cultural indiscretion, against people from a percieved lower class, but really just from poor neighborhoods (but they are still subject to the flaws of their neighboorhoods, and assimilate to them). You're argument flawed, by that alone. Figure out another way to call me prejudice, because that's not working.
Machinesworking wrote: Negative stereotypes don't ferment tolerance IMO.
Well, you seem to be the expert, but i'll counter that ignoring them doesn't either. And, you still haven't answered my questions, no one has, so i'll repeat it.. and until someone does answer my question, your argument is fundamentally flawed..:

Stinky wrote:It begs the question, where do you draw the line between cultural trait and cultural stereotype? Is it it's capacity as a negative trait that turns it into a stereotype, and something that should not be discussed rationally?
Also, who gets to describe it as being negative? You do, because of your morally superior culture? That's just as 'prejudice'.

One of my best friend's is an Iranian (persian, arab, muslim) married to a Jew. Go figure. She'll tell you the exact same thing that i'm telling you right now. Generally, Arab societies are not tolerant societies for the weak. You can call me prejudice if you want, but i doubt you've been out of the country, much less in a predominantly arab culture, and until you have, you need to consider that your judgement is flawed.
Machinesworking wrote: My basic beef here is that you are working really hard in this thread to make sure that any person who is anti Israel knows that there is a bias against Israel simply because they win their battles for the most part, and they are a new country etc.... those are great points IMO.
It's even more than that. It's history doomed to repeat itself, and if there weren't these problems, there would be other reasons to blame the jews for something or other.

Machinesworking wrote: but when it comes to arabs, I feel you don't give them that consideration. You shouldn't use cultural stereotypes to judge the political actions of a country or people, THAT is where I see it as you being prejudiced. You can't even realistically say that the this whole "arabs will take advantage of weakness" thing is anything more than a reaction to the western expansionism in the territory. Given that it's possible that this is in fact the case, what good do you think will develop from Israel and the west perceiving arabs by a stereotype such as that?
I give them as much consideration as anyone else, and don't ignore there flaws, just as much as i don't ignore Israels flaws. I give them more consideration than most people do Israel. I give them more respect than you would ever know, and by realizing the situation that they've been put in (and, have put themselves in to various degrees). But, i will not allow a flawed analysis of my arguments to let stand as yours are foolishly blind to current events and facts.
Machinesworking wrote: Do you think that thinking along those lines will help to change the situation?
Yes, i do, because not taking it into consideration leaves room for a misunderstanding of events, past, present, and future.

deva
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Post by deva » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:29 pm

stinky wrote:
deva wrote:(A scientific fact that the Israeli lobby went to lengths to suppress).
Are you just speculating that, or do you have proof?
I was referring to a scientific paper which concluded from genetic analysis while studying immune systems of people in the middle east that Palestinians and Semitic Jews are essentially genetically identical. The paper was published, then later retracted after heavy pressure from the Israeli lobby. Of course it contradicts the notion of being a special, chosen people and that Judaism can only be inherited. Dangerous stuff, and thus suppressed.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:41 pm

deva wrote:I was referring to a scientific paper which concluded from genetic analysis while studying immune systems of people in the middle east that Palestinians and Semitic Jews are essentially genetically identical. The paper was published, then later retracted after heavy pressure from the Israeli lobby.
Please provide a link. Like I said, there's not an Israeli, or Educated person i know that refutes that Arabs and Jews have a common ancestor in Abraham. A genetic link is good proof, but it's not the only proof out there. I'd like you to provide some evidence in the form an unbiased article or a statement from the scientists to the effect of the unsubstantiated claim that you're representing. Until then, it's just empty rhetoric, and false innuendo that's been repeated needlessly to promote prejudice against jews.

deva
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Post by deva » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:02 pm

Quoted from an article by Uri Avnery

Years of the occupation regime in the Palestinian territories have caused a terrible callousness as far as human lives are concerned. The killing of ten to twenty Palestinians every day, including women and children, as happens now in Gaza, does not agitate anyone. It doesn't even make the headlines. Gradually, even routine expressions like "We regret…we had no intention…the most moral army in the world…" and all the other trite phrases are not heard anymore.

Now this numbness is revealing itself in Lebanon. Air Force officers, calm and comfortable, sit in front of the cameras and speak about "bundles of targets", as if they were talking about a technical problem, and not about living human beings. They speak about driving hundreds of thousands of human beings from their homes as an imposing military achievement, and do not hide their satisfaction in face of human beings whose whole life has been destroyed. The word that is most popular with the generals at this time is "pulverize" - we pulverize, they are being pulverized, neighborhoods are pulverized, buildings are pulverized, people are pulverized.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:26 pm

That's great, but you didn't post your source for that previous statement you made about the genetic paper being supressed, so you're suspect.

Second, are you prepared to state unequivically that Hezbollah has no moral obligation to the charges? It's not their fault in the slightest? Before you go off saying that they're protecting the Lebanese people, please consider that Hezbollah are not there to protect the Lebanese people in the slightest. The Lebanese army is supposed to protect the Lebanese people, but to fight Hezbollah would revert back to civil war. Additionally, Hezbollah isn't really protecting anyone, but provoke attack by Israel, so as to gain simpathy from the response of their provocations. Additionally, Hezbollah is an Islamic military faction, and the Lebanese people are a mixed culture. Claiming that Hezbollah is there to protect the Lebanese is bullshit, they just want to use the Lebanese.

As far as Israel invading southern Lebanon, they wouldn't have to do it if there were a Lebanese OR international peace keeping force to repel Hezbollah attacks on the North Of Israel. There is no doubt in my mind that Israel will do what is necessary in their eyes to make sure that Hezbollah rockets are no longer a threat to the North of Israel. If that means destroying the 13,000 strong cache of Iranian missiles hiding amongst the 'civilian'population, how else would YOU go about it?


deva wrote:The killing of ten to twenty Palestinians every day, including women and children, as happens now in Gaza, does not agitate anyone. It doesn't even make the headlines.
They most certainly do make headlines daily, not just in the western world, but in Israeli media, every day. No one, not even Israel, is going to sit there a make these kind of actions out to be minor, or of inconsequence. But the fact of the matter is, that the people that claim they are protecting the palestinian (Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad) use the population as a human sheild. In fact, they force them do so, under the threat of execution. It happens daily, and you don't hear many people on the left writing about that.

When Israeli's in Ghilo come under fire from Beit Jala, it's because an armed unit of Hamas, or Islamic Jihad, or Al'aqsa Martyrs has commendeered a house from the local palestinians, whether they allowed them to or not. Not all palestinians support this kind of behavior, but if they don't, they'll get shot. And, when they do, they get fire returned upon them from Israeli positions. That's a lose lose situation for them, and you can't say that's entirely Israel's fault.

So tell me, do you really think these organizations are legitimately fighting for their people? Of course not. They need funds to remain to exist as an organization. They need Guns. These things aren't free. They get them from Syria and Iran, in return for operations, etc. Not all the palestinians are for this type of behaviour, and those are the people that you should be finding solidarity with. I do.

Violence begets violence, and provocations of violence and cowardly hiding behind the people you're protecting is no less of a Human Rights violation than anything israel is doing, but still gets justified somehow.

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:16 pm

stinky wrote: I'm not biased in the least bit. I what is going on. But, the fact remains that in Israel, there's a saying, "Arabs only understand the sword." They can only be met with strength, or they will take advantage you. This is the mentality of Israelis, and many people in Europe think that Israel retalition for attacks is disproportionate. Well, if it was any less, things would be alot worse. In arab society, people do take advantage of weakness. That's the nature of their society. You, computo, can't fathom what living like that is like. So, you're armchair referee play is weak. Instead of adding to the hostilities, add something positive.

No, your entirely mistaken. If you read carefully, i specifically refer to the mentality of the Israeli society as a whole, and how they view arabs in general. I never once purported that to by own personal view. I then went on to say that without being part of that society, you have no ability to understand that rationality. I do understand it, because i have seen it and felt it. But, i don't for an instant think that's how arabs are.



Just because it's a negative viewpoint, doesn't necessarily mean it's completely wrong. You jumped into a thread late in the game, and have taken alot of what i said out of context. Arab society is like that. It may be negative, but it's not wrong. It's a cultural thing. Disregarding that in these types of conversation are similar to saying that in Japanese culture dominance of male over female is not conducive to discussing their cultural traits. It may be negative but it's true.
diverdee wrote:
are arguing that a the disproportionate response is justified
That's an inference your making that without merit...

It begs the question, where do you draw the line between cultural trait and cultural stereotype? Is it it's capacity as a negative trait that turns it into a stereotype, and something that should not be discussed rationally?


As much as you don't want to admit, you're blind to the fact that if Israel continues to back, it will be just as large, or larger, of a target as it has been.


Dude, everyone's fucking prejudiced, to some extent.... that's my fucking point, if you can read my statements. It's a culture thing. What's acceptablet to one culture is not acceptable to another. If you claim not to be, than you're not living in the real world. Where you grew up, what you were/are subjucted to, that affects how you view things. You're making it out to be black and white, and that's not how it really is. I'm not racist the way you're inferring, by making a statement that in Arab culture, weakness is taken advantage of. I'm sorry, that is far from a racist statement, and you're too blinded by your ego to see otherwise. You're not even reading the entire thread, you're just jumping in when you feel like it to blantantly rant unobjectively.
Hey, I'm about done with this, I need to clean up some material for a vocalist I'm working with, the whole music thing you know! :wink:

Here is a quick list of your quotes that might help to explain why people are thinking that you might possibly be a little prejudiced.
I highlighted the part that I think you were referring to in regards to me not answering your question..

I think it is to a degree it's the negative implications that make a cultural trait different, but in many ways, cultural traits are thought to be subtle things, like food, social life, fashion, etc.
While cultural stereotypes are things like using a countries history of war, or the intricacies of their religious and social practices to describe a whole society.
When can you have a rational discussion about it? Well I don't think it's really possible in the case of a war stricken area. People take sides, it's only human.
You are more sympathetic towards the Israelis, which is fine, but when you use cultural stereotypes to justify the actions of the Israeli army........ I know you aren't totally for their actions, not saying that, just that you have consistently pointed to the moral decrepitude of the arab world in response to condemnation of Israeli violence. It's the prejudice that the west has had towards the "uncivilized" world for centuries. (You can't win the hearts and minds of the colonialist army unless you make a culture out to be inherently superior.) You might not think like that, but that's the way you're coming across.

I don't even disagree with you that much, Israel has a right to exist, and the arab world has to get used to that.
In many ways Israel has a better government etc.
Just on this one point, that using cultural stereotypes to bolster your argument in a conversation about a war makes you look prejudice.

I wanted to say I don't have any malice towards you stinky, and for the most part you remain on track. Though the name calling thing..... after looking through this thread again, I have to say that I'm not cool with it, and I plan on not throwing in any in the future. It really takes away from the discussion IMO.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:47 pm

I think it is to a degree it's the negative implications that make a cultural trait different, but in many ways, cultural traits are thought to be subtle things, like food, social life, fashion, etc.
While cultural stereotypes are things like using a countries history of war, or the intricacies of their religious and social practices to describe a whole society.
This isn't a very consistent argument, and from your response it can be looked at as saying there is not difference between a cultural trait and a cultural stereotype, just who's percepting it in their own fashion!! Just think about it and you'll realize that it's a trick question! There is no answer to it, because of perspective and perception. It's like the phrase, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." There is no way to answer it properly, it gets asked in universities all over the world, and the only true answer is based on perception.
stinky wrote:i don't for an instant think that's how arabs are
I've said it in other posts in this thread, but i wanted to correct this statement as being "all arabs". because that's what i meant to write.
stinky wrote:Well, if it was any less, things would be alot worse. In arab society, people do take advantage of weakness. That's the nature of their society.
You can think what you want, but i stand by all my statements. Especially this one. Simply because, if Israel gave in to the palestinian's (Syria's, Lebanon's, Iran's, the rest of the world) demands, there lives would be insecure to the point that they might just not be there. The 'funny' thing that Israel is accutely aware of is, by having a country where they're all congregated, it makes it much simpler for their enemies to wipe them out. And, it's been consistently stated by EVERY arab nation at one time or another (and by people in this thread) that Israel doesn't belong there, and should be removed, by force if necessary.

Machinesworking wrote:It's the prejudice that the west has had towards the "uncivilized" world for centuries.
I don't for a second deny that, but what i have said is not the same thing as saying they're an inferior race. Saying that they need to be dealt with with strength because that's how what they respect, and if you don't they will take advantage of you, is not a racist statement. It's not a prejudice statement. It can be made about any company in the corporate world of America. I think you're taking it a little too far, and it's really a shame that you've hijacked the thread just to try and make me look a dick.

Machinesworking wrote: Just on this one point, that using cultural stereotypes to bolster your argument in a conversation about a war makes you look prejudice.
You can call it whatever you want, and that's your view point. But the fact of the matter is, you've never been there, you wouldn't know, and you're just trying to prop up your morality like it's better than mine, because i use a cultural statement to bolster my argument. Well, again, that's your view point. I think you've proven my point just as well as i have.

Machinesworking wrote: I wanted to say I don't have any malice towards you stinky, and for the most part you remain on track. Though the name calling thing.....
Oh you mean calling me a racist?
Machinesworking wrote:after looking through this thread again, I have to say that I'm not cool with it, and I plan on not throwing in any in the future
Good, i hope so.
Machinesworking wrote:It really takes away from the discussion

IMO.
It most certainly does. I hope you don't do it again.

I was pretty respectful of you the entire time, but i did call your assessments of the situation ignorant, to some extent. And, i still feel they are. I have alot of respect for you, and i've said that before (specifically at the beginning of this thread, and others), and we agree on much, but I think you're talking out of your ass, trying to make me look like an asshole, and i've only been critically disproving most of your assertions... i believe i've succeeded. Do what you must, call me what you will... that's your right, but i'm not going to sit here and let an ignorant statement based on assertions, predisposed perceptions, and moral ambiguity stand. Sorry, i have more self respect than that.


Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:28 am

stinky wrote: I was pretty respectful of you the entire time, but i did call your assessments of the situation ignorant, to some extent. And, i still feel they are. I have alot of respect for you, and i've said that before (specifically at the beginning of this thread, and others), and we agree on much, but I think you're talking out of your ass, trying to make me look like an asshole, and i've only been critically disproving most of your assertions... i believe i've succeeded. Do what you must, call me what you will... that's your right, but i'm not going to sit here and let an ignorant statement based on assertions, predisposed perceptions, and moral ambiguity stand. Sorry, i have more self respect than that.
I don't know man? I actually meant both of us! :wink:
stinky wrote:I don't for a second deny that, but what i have said is not the same thing as saying they're an inferior race. Saying that they need to be dealt with with strength because that's how what they respect, and if you don't they will take advantage of you, is not a racist statement. It's not a prejudice statement. It can be made about any company in the corporate world of America. I think you're taking it a little too far, and it's really a shame that you've hijacked the thread just to try and make me look a dick.
Corporate politics are the politics of war, if that is how Israel (in your opinion) defines it's policies towards the rest of the arab world, then it's a state of constant war they want and desire.
Seriously, I'm not trying to make you look like a dick, but I do think you have prejudice towards arabs. Me saying that doesn't constitute name calling, you don't even deny the sentence that led to this conclusion.

stinky wrote: You can call it whatever you want, and that's your view point. But the fact of the matter is, you've never been there, you wouldn't know, and you're just trying to prop up your morality like it's better than mine, because i use a cultural statement to bolster my argument. Well, again, that's your view point. I think you've proven my point just as well as i have.

So if I lived in the ghetto for years on end, and I'm a white guy who gets his ass kicked and money stolen on a regular basis by the gang bangers, if I say that blacks are all violent thieves, I get a sort of "get out of prejudice card" whenever I'm talking to a group of people who did not grow up in the ghetto? There is enough incidences of this throughout America to say it's a cultural stereotype in some people's opinion, and it would be dammed near impossible to deny that at the very least these people are prejudiced.
I'm not here to win this, and I didn't single you out at first, remember both of us initially agreed on bounce's silly statement about Christ.... You have some values that I don't agree with, that's all. I have no moral high ground here, my morality isn't even a part of the equation. I haven't stated in any way whether I'm racist or liberal or whatever..... And in fact if you go through this thread you'll see that I never say that Israel shouldn't exist, or any other such nonsense. I think Israel is a shame in the lines of Iran when it comes to non secular nations... but that's another story... I think Israel has the most chance of becoming an ethically superior state in the area right now, wealth and fear of western rebuttals financially etc. if they go too far help out with that, as well as a large non religious element that hopefully gets some political clout. :)

deva
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Post by deva » Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:38 am

stinky wrote:That's great, but you didn't post your source for that previous statement you made about the genetic paper being supressed, so you're suspect.
yes yes, I am suspect... I must be the one who has just created 500,000 refugees and bombed a nation into rubble.

I read about that published paper 4-6 months ago. I don't remember the link. It is an insignificant point, just the sort of thing to spend time focused on to avoid the war crimes being committed by israel right as we speak.

Israel is bombing bridges, schools, power stations, gas stations, TV stations. They are targeting the civilian infrastructure of the country.

This has nothing to do with the 2 Israeli soldiers as Israel has been planning this for more than a year. Even the Israeli newspaper has printed so. Of course the people warning of such a move were called anti-semitic, paranoid or in other ways maligned and ridiculed.

This is just the start of what is to come...

deva
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Post by deva » Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:45 am

stinky wrote:
deva wrote:The killing of ten to twenty Palestinians every day, including women and children, as happens now in Gaza, does not agitate anyone. It doesn't even make the headlines.
They most certainly do make headlines daily, not just in the western world, but in Israeli media, every day. No one, not even Israel, is going to sit there a make these kind of actions out to be minor, or of inconsequence.
That is not my quote there but as I said a quote from Uri Avnery, a 3 term member of the Knesset and peace activist. That is his commentary as an Israeli living there on the psychological state of the people as a whole.

As for your other commentary, it seems you are wrestling with the questions yourself since you ask them of me, then proceed to answer the questions and talk to me as if the answers you gave were mine. So I think behind your defense of Israel you are troubled by these actions they are taking and are trying to justify them. Understandable.

I believe they are not justifiable. I believe the people of Israel have been betrayed by their leadership, just as the people of the United States have been betrayed by the leadership here. I believe these two governments are purposefully pushing towards a regional/world war and they are doing so through lies, deception and the use of naked power.

Here in the U.S. we are falling fast into a police state. The Bill of Rights is in tatters and the Constitution, according to pResident Bush, is just 'a goddamn piece of paper'. The Bush adminstration claims unchecked power and we now have the USSSUD (United States Secret Service Uniformed Division). A new national police force with broad discretionary powers to arrest for suspicion rather than probable cause. (an enormous legal difference).

For the dissenters the U.S. government is building some shiny new detention camps to be used "in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs".

...the rapid development of new programs. What sort of new program would you need an internment camp for?

It is a dark path we are on and we need people of good conscience everywhere to speak up, to act up. I don't usually get too much into discussions about Israel because we are failing to stem the tide of fascism here in the U.S. We got our own house to get in order.

Rajah
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Post by Rajah » Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:54 am

deva wrote:
This is just the start of what is to come...
So do you mean that I will have to pay my $40. a month cable TV bill to have this stupid war 24/7 on my TV news channels. I am already fed-up of WARS. Click!

stinky
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Post by stinky » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:00 am

Sorry about the quote, i must of put your name on someone elses quote.. my mistake

deva wrote: As for your other commentary, it seems you are wrestling with the questions yourself since you ask them of me, then proceed to answer the questions and talk to me as if the answers you gave were mine. So I think behind your defense of Israel you are troubled by these actions they are taking and are trying to justify them. Understandable.

I believe they are not justifiable. I believe the people of Israel have been betrayed by their leadership, just as the people of the United States have been betrayed by the leadership here. I believe these two governments are purposefully pushing towards a regional/world war and they are doing so through lies, deception and the use of naked power.

Here in the U.S. we are falling fast into a police state. The Bill of Rights is in tatters and the Constitution, according to pResident Bush, is just 'a goddamn piece of paper'. The Bush adminstration claims unchecked power and we now have the USSSUD (United States Secret Service Uniformed Division). A new national police force with broad discretionary powers to arrest for suspicion rather than probable cause. (an enormous legal difference).

For the dissenters the U.S. government is building some shiny new detention camps to be used "in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs".

...the rapid development of new programs. What sort of new program would you need an internment camp for?

It is a dark path we are on and we need people of good conscience everywhere to speak up, to act up. I don't usually get too much into discussions about Israel because we are failing to stem the tide of fascism here in the U.S. We got our own house to get in order.
I don't disagree with anything you've said, and even Machinesworking knows that i'm against the US policy. You may not believe it from what i've stated here, but I am against Israeli policy as much as i'm against the US policy. The only problem that i have with all of this, is simply that, as opposed to what happened with Iraq and the US, Israel is getting provoked and has been getting provoked constantly since it's creation. Hezbollah and Hamas, et al, aren't doing this for their people. They're doing it to sustain themselves, and provoke Israel, and in effect cause as much damage as possible, to make Israel look like an immoral nation.

I do have a question for you though.. Simply this, how can you blame the Israeli and US government's and not blame the Lebanese Government for allowing Hezbollah to provoke (and literal control all of southern Lebanon) Israel unabated since Israel left Lebanon in 2000? So, the Lebanese Goverment is not to blame in any of this? Can you blame Israel then for preparing for something like this, if the Lebanese government has been allowing these actions to occur?

How can you blame Israel, and not blame the PLO and Hamas for taking international aid, and instead of injecting that much needed aid into it's infrustructure, investing in Guns and Suicide Bombers, as well as lining their own pockets in one of the biggest international corruption schemes involving relief funds?

I just think simply that people are really looking at this very one sided, and not seeing that Israel's not causing the problems with it's actions. It's Israel's reactions that are the problem.

diverdee
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:11 am
Location: Bradford - The Armpit of Britain

Post by diverdee » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:12 am

Perspective of another authoratitive & influential Israeli (active within the peaces movement), sadly no longer with us:
Professor Israel Shahak (Hebrew University) wrote:The wish for peace, so often assumed as the Israeli aim, is not in my view a principle of Israeli policy, while the wish to extend Israeli domination and influence is… Israel is preparing for a war, nuclear if need be, for the sake of averting domestic change not to its liking, if it occurs in some or any Middle Eastern states... Israel clearly prepares itself to seek overtly a hegemony over the entire Middle East..., without hesitating to use for the purpose all means available, including nuclear ones.

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