[POLITICAL] - LEBANON

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stinky
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Post by stinky » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:27 pm

BTW, i'd like to point out again, just to make it clear about something i said before, that you're response to this:
stinky wrote: Let me ask you this.. how many palestinians do you know first hand debate the morality of suicide bombings. Everyone i know justifies it. I 'can' justify it to some extent, but that's still not morally just, is it? Now, on the israeli side, there is a peace camp, and a full blown left that does protest emphatically against the government there. I ask you this... is that view being reciprocated unabashedly on the palestinian side? Can you honestly tell me that it is? Name the organizations that mirror groups like Peace Now but on the palestinian side, and are willing to protest openly (as they do in jerusalem and tel aviv almost weekly)?
was this:

diverdee wrote:Regarding nonviolent organisations on the Palestinian side - historically the most active were various womens groups who made alliances with peacenow, the woemn in black & others during the first Intifada.
They came to nought though with the increasing militancy exhibited, mostly through the participation of more radical islamist organisations towards the end of the first intifada
You're inferring here to the militancy against any possible organized peace initiative against the PA. I see that as a justification of my statement about cultural traits, which i was berated as being a racist for. Hardly.

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:41 pm

stinky wrote: I see that as a justification of my statement about cultural traits, which i was berated as being a racist for. Hardly.
Do you prefer prejudiced? It more aptly fits your stand on the Palestinians, and arabs in general.

You are so quick to point out any perceived prejudice in any statement made by anybody in regards to the military actions of Israel, yet you continue to make sweeping generalizations about the the arabs as a whole.... You are prejudiced, and the sad part is you don't see it, but then it's almost always like that isn't it?

At least racists are straight up about it. :roll:

stinky
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Post by stinky » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:47 pm

Do you prefer prejudiced? It more aptly fits your stand on the Palestinians, and arabs in general.

You are so quick to point out any perceived prejudice in any statement made by anybody in regards to the military actions of Israel, yet you continue to make sweeping generalizations about the the arabs as a whole.... You are prejudiced, and the sad part is you don't see it, but then it's almost always like that isn't it?

At least racists are straight up about it.
Dude, everyone's fucking prejudiced, to some extent.... that's my fucking point, if you can read my statements. It's a culture thing. What's acceptablet to one culture is not acceptable to another. If you claim not to be, than you're not living in the real world. Where you grew up, what you were/are subjucted to, that affects how you view things. You're making it out to be black and white, and that's not how it really is. I'm not racist the way you're inferring, by making a statement that in Arab culture, weakness is taken advantage of. I'm sorry, that is far from a racist statement, and you're too blinded by your ego to see otherwise. You're not even reading the entire thread, you're just jumping in when you feel like it to blantantly rant unobjectively.

whatever..

stinky
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Post by stinky » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:55 pm

You are so quick to point out any perceived prejudice in any statement made by anybody in regards to the military actions of Israel,
That's not what i'm doing here... what i'm trying to point out, and what i've stated before is, that there are two sides to every coin, and everyone is targetting Israel as being the perpetrators of this "entire" mess, and that the poor palestinians are not to blame in the slightest. I'm sorry, but that's irrational. All i'm saying is that Hezbollah and Hamas, the PLO... they are not justified in their actions either, and their poor leadership is as much a part of the problem as Israel's. I've never once condoned israel's actions in any of my statements. Sorry, if you think i have, point it out, and i'll refute your ill conceived understanding of what i said.

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:39 pm

stinky wrote:
Do you prefer prejudiced? It more aptly fits your stand on the Palestinians, and arabs in general.

You are so quick to point out any perceived prejudice in any statement made by anybody in regards to the military actions of Israel, yet you continue to make sweeping generalizations about the the arabs as a whole.... You are prejudiced, and the sad part is you don't see it, but then it's almost always like that isn't it?

At least racists are straight up about it.
Dude, everyone's fucking prejudiced, to some extent.... that's my fucking point, if you can read my statements. It's a culture thing. What's acceptablet to one culture is not acceptable to another. If you claim not to be, than you're not living in the real world. Where you grew up, what you were/are subjucted to, that affects how you view things. You're making it out to be black and white, and that's not how it really is. I'm not racist the way you're inferring, by making a statement that in Arab culture, weakness is taken advantage of. I'm sorry, that is far from a racist statement, and you're too blinded by your ego to see otherwise. You're not even reading the entire thread, you're just jumping in when you feel like it to blantantly rant unobjectively.

whatever..
I seriously don't think you understand why your thinking is flawed, and I don't want to come across as patronizing, but you really need to think differently about these things if you are going to grow as a person.
Making blanket statements about cultures is seriously dangerous, period!

The major one that comes to mind is blacks being perceived as criminally minded.
You could argue that there are more blacks in prison in the states, and black neighborhoods are crime infested, so therefore culturally black people are likely to steal from you.
Do you have any idea how idiotic that is? It's easy to seer that black neighborhoods are poor, and that blacks have less of a chance of coming from wealthy families etc.. so of course crime is an answer to some, given the environment. There has been historically prejudiced events that add up to the situation, and any thinking person would NEVER judge the entire culture as crooked. Given the cultural stereotype, weak minded people do however, and they claim to not be racist as well..

How the fuck is that any different than saying arabs will take advantage of weakness? You are talking about a part of the world that has been under siege for a few hundred years at the least... Basically, unlike european conflicts, when non white people were involved, the punishment for losing the war was pretty dammed harsh, the whole region was dismantled etc. I'm sure you don't need a history lesson of the area, and considering that, I really don't get how you can state with such arrogance that the arab world lives by the sword etc. ??
You're playing stupid with this, and I'm not about to go through every reason why you come across like a jerk here, it's not hard to figure out, you're justifying harsh treatment by blaming the victim.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:53 pm

Machinesworking wrote:you're justifying harsh treatment by blaming the victim
That's not what i'm doing in the slightest. You're not even being logical.
Machinesworking wrote: Making blanket statements about cultures is seriously dangerous, period!
You're correct, but not understanding the differences in culture is just as dangerous. The whole world can't be a melting pot like in the US, and even in the US, Europe, every Western society, it's not working as well you'd like to think. Just throwing out the differences between us and saying that it's prejudice to notice them will foment intolerance under the surface that will manifest itself just as unjustly.
Machinesworking wrote: The major one that comes to mind is blacks being perceived as criminally minded.
That perception is because they're subjected to a lower class by the majority, are left to rot in poor neighborhoods. It's not the same. Arabs themselves willfully admit their mass humilitation at being the subject of western indiscretions for the past millenium. That's just as much a cultural trait as what i'm suggesting. I've said before, and it's no different. I pointed to Honor Killings as one aspect of that cultural trait, and you can't deny that is part of it. It's a FACT. Get over yourself. Just because it's negative doesn't make it less of a factor.

M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:05 pm

diverdee wrote:...Hizbollah also has the motivation of...the sabaa farms.
Just a point, but The Shaaba farms are not Lebanese Territory occupied by Israelis - it's Syrian territory occupied by the Israelis. Even the UN said so. No legitimate motivation for Hizbollah there, unless they're (gasp!!!) controlled by Syria...

jimmyalba
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Post by jimmyalba » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:32 pm

WHO ARE THE REAL TERRORISTS?

George Bush claims that Hizbollah is armed and funded by Syria and Iran. But Israel receives $3 billion of aid each year from the US.

Israel claims it is reacting to the kidnapping of two of its soldiers. But Israel holds a whole nation to ransom.

Some 78 percent of historic Palestine is occupied, and Israel intervenes at will in the remaining 22 percent. Four million Palestinians are refugees.

Israel, armed by the US and Britain, is the greatest source of violence in the region.

It is this violence that has bred resistance from groups such as Hizbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Palestine - just as the US-led occupation is now breeding resistance in Iraq and Afghanistan.
LIVE 4.01Intel Pentium 2.4GHz. 512Mb RAM
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diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:21 am

Well - i'm of m,y bonce after a good night out, just taking a break whilst our lass (also of her bonce) searches around the house for a field vole that's crept in.
Nyways - I personally thought stinky actually made some good points regarding cultural diferences, & may have been misunderstodd/misportrayed to a certain extent.
It's one of the first few things that's taught in conflict resolution courses - the whole di8ffrent cultaural outlooks & languages thing, which (sorry a negative thing again in relation to language etc.) has worked to the palestinian's disadvantage in various negotiations & treaties.
Anyway's i've forgotten what point I was trying to make now, but I guess - stinky, I can totally see where you're coming from, might not agre with everything you're saying & it's a subject that's more conducive to being sat face to face & having time to fully elucidate one's points - but yeah, it's a truism really - cultures have differences, different outlooks & peceptions etc.
I remember studying various south american tribes during conflict resolutin - ther was one (if I remember correctly) that didn't have word for (& didn't understand the concept of) theft - everything was communally owned - so it was a foreign concept.
How culturally different is that?
I think they may have been headhunters though, & possibly ate peoples brains - another kettle of fish eh?
I'm bolloxed.

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:34 am

Anotehr point though regarding arabs * islam.
It's something of a fallacy (perpetuated by pan-arabists & pan-islamists themselves to be fair) that Islam or the 'arabic' identity is this monolithic 'culteure.
It's more realistic to perceive them as somewhat ephemeral & open to interpretation/redefinition 'meta-cultures' within which regional, national & even tribal cultures exist/are subsumed.
Lumping all 'arabs' together & attempting to make blanket statements about any ostensible arab culture is a little like lumping all europeans togehter & making blanket statements about european or christian culture.
Try telling the french, germans & us brits that we can all be judged/interpreted according to the same criteria.
It's simply a theoretical level of abstraction, a categorisation, a remnant of pre-crtical postitivist classification.
It has it's uses in study, but it has to be remembered that it is only an interpretation of the reality, a system of classification.
I'll shut up now I reckon.
Note to self, try not to engage in deep meaningul rational debate when fuxxored.
Anyways, my field of study was & main interest is peace.
Anyway's some Lyrics this brought to mind:
Some may rise
Some may fall
Some stay silent
Some may call
Many are called
But few are chosen
If you read the books
It’s peace they proposing.
But war still reigns
In too many lands
Illusory peace
Is proposed & planned.
We all pay lip allegiance
To him
Jah, allah, yahweh
Brahma, elohim,
Many names
For the same lord
Worship the one
Yet find unity hard
Cruce wrote in 1623
There’s no essential difference
Between you & me
Peace out (& al that shite) :D

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:53 am

stinky wrote:BTW, i'd like to point out again, just to make it clear about something i said before, that you're response to this:
stinky wrote: Let me ask you this.. how many palestinians do you know first hand debate the morality of suicide bombings. Everyone i know justifies it. I 'can' justify it to some extent, but that's still not morally just, is it? Now, on the israeli side, there is a peace camp, and a full blown left that does protest emphatically against the government there. I ask you this... is that view being reciprocated unabashedly on the palestinian side? Can you honestly tell me that it is? Name the organizations that mirror groups like Peace Now but on the palestinian side, and are willing to protest openly (as they do in jerusalem and tel aviv almost weekly)?
was this:

diverdee wrote:Regarding nonviolent organisations on the Palestinian side - historically the most active were various womens groups who made alliances with peacenow, the woemn in black & others during the first Intifada.
They came to nought though with the increasing militancy exhibited, mostly through the participation of more radical islamist organisations towards the end of the first intifada
You're inferring here to the militancy against any possible organized peace initiative against the PA. I see that as a justification of my statement about cultural traits, which i was berated as being a racist for. Hardly.
Not a 'cultural' trait perse, more a specific trait of certain extremist islamist organisations & their often retrograde view of women.
If it was a 'cultural' trait, the womens organisations would nver have been allowed so prominent a place in the first place.
The peace camps against the wall in palestine have a fairly even mix of men & women - so you above statement is something of a gross generalisation, extrapolting from the particular & attempting to interpret the whiole according to that (it's a certain type of logical fallacy, but i'm to buggered to remember which one).
As relevant & useful as cultural classification & categoristion is, it is a theoretical tool that must be used very carefully - as it can be used to do great damage - as the jews (among others lioke the romanies) should know only too well.
Compare the theoretical viewpoint of the radical islamist for instance with the thoughts of islamic 'liberation' theologist like the south african farid esack for instance (who attempts a critical reinterpreatation of islamic ideals using insights gained from hermeneutics etc.) or writers/thinkers such as mohhamed al-jabril.

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:58 am

Anyways, whether at the gemeral level (such as 'arabs' or 'muslims') or teh paticular (egyptians, palestinians) onec one attempts to start classifying, categorising & interpreting by way of culture you've opened a pandoras box of dialectics & the whole complex & subtle interactions within cultural intersubjectivity anyways.

smutek
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Post by smutek » Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:03 am

Condoleezza Rice has described the plight of Lebanon as a part of the "birth pangs of a new Middle East" and said that Israel should ignore calls for a ceasefire.

"This is a different Middle East. It's a new Middle East. It's hard, We're going through a very violent time," the US secretary of state said.

"A ceasefire would be a false promise if it simply returns us to the status quo.

"Such a step would allow terrorists to launch attacks at the time and terms of their choosing and to threaten innocent people, Arab and Israeli, throughout the region."

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/ ... DD2A59.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/ ... diplomacy/

She really makes me sick. A cease fire could threaten innocent people she says.

What is the difference between terrorism and legitimate resistance? The answer is there is no such thing as legitimate resistance if it is resistance directed at the United States or Isreal.

deva
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Post by deva » Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:30 am

smutek wrote: What is the difference between terrorism and legitimate resistance? The answer is there is no such thing as legitimate resistance if it is resistance directed at the United States or Isreal.

exactly... any resistance to the U.S./Israeli agenda is terrorism... and any action by them is necessary self defense...

The U.N. has expressed condemnation of Israel more times than it has all the rest of the countries of the world combined. Of course in the pathologically self fulfilling mindset of the US/Israel, this can only mean that something is wrong with the rest of the world, not them.

Absurd circular logic.

Regarding the idea of Israel's 'right to exist'. One could also ask whether South African Apartheid has a right to exist.

Palestinians are Semites, genetically identical to Semitic Jews. (A scientific fact that the Israeli lobby went to lengths to suppress). Only ideology separates the two. One group is in power and is systematically wiping out the other group and taking their land.

Israel's right to exist has become another way to say, we have the right to do whatever we want. We all have individual freedoms, but we forfeit those rights if we think we can do whatever we want and, for example, murder someone. Those rights are lost and we would go to jail.

Now talk about the right of all the peoples of the region to live, raise families, prosper, etc and my answer is an unequivocal yes. But no government or segment of a population has a right to systematically retain power by the domination of others.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:08 pm

deva wrote:The U.N. has expressed condemnation of Israel more times than it has all the rest of the countries of the world combined. Of course in the pathologically self fulfilling mindset of the US/Israel, this can only mean that something is wrong with the rest of the world, not them.
You need to look at that statement from another way. Where are the majorities and the minorities? How many muslim coutries are there? How many arab nations? How many of those are oil producing? How many of those are in solidarity and alignment with the oil producing and/or muslim countries? Your talking about the UN like it's not a political organization and not subject to bias. That's the not the reality.

smutek wrote:What is the difference between terrorism and legitimate resistance? The answer is there is no such thing as legitimate resistance if it is resistance directed at the United States or Isreal.
Let's all take another step back and look at this statement from a different perspective. Would you consider the incident at Waco a legitimate resistance or a terrorism? Or, state sponsored terrorism?

I consider it state sponsored terrorism, against the Branch Dividians, but the fact of the matter remains that they never attacked anyone. My opinion that it was state sponsored terrorism is also disputable, and is still being discussed today, as to whether the government was just in doing what they did. The fact remains though, that a state, any (rational) state is not going to willingly allow a large group of militia the power to counteract it's forces.

Having said that, no matter of occupation is inherently right or wrong, and occupying entity will do what's necessary to stem the threat to it's "citizens" from any militia under it's control. That has always been and will always be a factual assessment of any state throughout history. Whether it's right or wrong is also subjective. When the Greek empire conquered a majority of the world, they were subject to similar scrutiny and opposing forces stated their side. You had places where there were rebelions, and you had places where the population was content with there occupiers that there was no need to rebel.
deva wrote:(A scientific fact that the Israeli lobby went to lengths to suppress).
Are you just speculating that, or do you have proof? Yes the Jewish lobby has the right to use anti-semetic in the context of anyone who is against jews. Why? Because jews are semites. Of course, they're going to use that word. But to say they suppress the fact that arabs are semites is stretching it really. I haven't known an israeli yet who wouldn't agree that arabs are semites and are from Abraham. Anyone who is educated in any way and/or who reads/knows the bible will tell you that Arabs are semites, just as jews. I think that statement is really pushing the factual envelope, and is not something that can be justified as correct, or factual. If ignorant people use the term anti-semetic only in regards to jews, and not arabs, then that's just ignorance, and ignorant people will always be ignorant.

deva wrote:Regarding the idea of Israel's 'right to exist'. One could also ask whether South African Apartheid has a right to exist.
I find it ignorant how people can relate what's going on in Israel to apartheid. Why. Simply because there are Arabs living among the Jewish population. There are Arabs represented in the Knesset. There are arabs in the Israeli army. There are Arabs in the Israeli Universities. These types of respresentations of the "oppressed" were not present in South African Apartheid.

I'm not condoning the wall, or the refugee camps (which i'll go into in a second) by saying this. Any portion of a country without a physical border is subject to infiltration by any unwanted elements. By unwanted, i'm referring to any suicide bombers, or possible elements meant to destabilize the society. Any country has a right to defend those borders in any matter. That's why there are borders, and until that time where borders don't exist (i highly doubt will be any time in our life times), then those borders can and should be defended. That's the reality of the world in which we live. If the nation next to yours has agreements in place and peace treaties, than something like the EU or the US/Canada is possible. But, otherwise, if these things aren't in place, than there is no valid arguement against border control. The Israeli government realized there is not enough manpower to cover an area that size. Whether they're usurping palestinian land is another matter, and is seperate from this particular discussion about border control (and can't be verified because there aren't agreements in place with the palestinians.)
deva wrote:Only ideology separates the two. One group is in power and is systematically wiping out the other group and taking their land.
That again, is also a fallacy. Yes, people are dying, and a dispraportionate amount are Palestian, but there is nothing systematic about it. There are no death camps. The refugee camps are not death camps. They're not being forced into slave labor. There aren't mass graves like in Bosnia. There are no gas chambers. Saying that Israel is systematically killing the palestinians is just as dispraportionate as denying that more palestinias are dying than Israel. A little proportion is in order.

Yes, more palestinians are dying than Israelis, but a large portion of that is because Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc are all amongst the population and use them as a shield. The fighting is mostly done in palestinian controlled areas because that's where Hamas, Islamic Jihad are. This is done purposefully by those organizations for 2 reasons. It serves as protection for them because the Israel army will try not to kill civilians and they know it. Second, the civilians that are killed can be used to say "Look at how brutal these Israeli are"

That is the reality of the situation. Now, about the refugee camps. That's not Israel's choice to have them. There are also refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan. Jordan is the only arab country which has given palestinians citizenship. Kuwait expelled their palestinian population when it alligned itself with Iraq during the first gulf war. The PLO also tried to overthrow the government in Jordan. The refugee camps in Lebanon are just as shitty as the ones in Palestine. Refugee Camps are shitty, in general. But the fact remains that a large portion of Palestinians have chosen not to integrate properly with their host countries, and have, to the contrary, become destabilizing elements within that host country. The refugee camps are not a product of the Israeli government but a product of the palestinian peoples (not all) unwillingness to exist peacefully with their hosts. It's not just Israel's problem. This is done purposefully, to prolong the situation, and to foment hatred for Israel and sympathy for the palestinians.

Look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee
deva wrote:Israel's right to exist has become another way to say, we have the right to do whatever we want. We all have individual freedoms, but we forfeit those rights if we think we can do whatever we want and, for example, murder someone. Those rights are lost and we would go to jail.
This is also blantantly ignorant. Israel debates and puts into law elements designed to protect the population under it's control. There are trials for Israeli's that shoot palestinians deemed to be against the code of conduct. These elements are in place. Whether they are strong enough, is debatable. Whether these trials are show trials. That's debatable. However, people are corruptable in every aspect of every society. But, the entire army does not have their bullseye in hand with palestinian children as the target. That's just hate-filled propaganda to even think that.
deva wrote: Now talk about the right of all the peoples of the region to live, raise families, prosper, etc and my answer is an unequivocal yes. But no government or segment of a population has a right to systematically retain power by the domination of others.
That is the only statement that you made that is actually factual and correct! We are in agreement there. But, until the parties themselves are in agreement as to how they will treat "each other", then the situation will continue.

Again, for the record, i don't agree with alot of the handling of these issues by the Israeli government, but the palestinian people aren't saints and martyrs eithers. This situation is as much their own fault as it is Israel's.

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