[POLITICAL] - LEBANON

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ilia
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Post by ilia » Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:30 am

computo wrote:Oops,

What I meant was Israel is run by religious extremists calling for killing/slaughtering/destruction of ARABS, not all non-Jews.
Look, there is certainly plenty of animosity and many hard-liners in power.
Innocent arabs probably die every day.

But do you honestly think that if the balance of power was reversed -- if the palestineans and, say, Syria, had the military power of Israel, and Israel was defending with Katyushas -- the situation would be a mirror of what we have now? Because, to me it sure looks like the Jews would have "been driven into the sea" at the very first opportunity. Each and every one of them.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:33 am

Machinesworking wrote:You say that like an occupying military walking through your suburbs wouldn't be met with resistance? and what do they defend themselves with against stones? guns isn't it? If the military in the states had used loaded guns against demonstrators here instead of tear gas, and other methods it would be met with shock.

I think we don't really care what happens to the Palestinians, just like the rest of the world. We talk about other nations reaction to etc. but we really don't think about the human element there. Not all Palestinians are fundamentalist suicide bombers, contrary to popular belief.
I didn't say i condone actions of an occupying entity, but you cannot compare this to a pogrom or a holocaust. And, if you look at any occupying nation throughout history, and compare their actions to the actions of Israel as an occupying entity, there will be a huge difference in statistics in regards to human rights violations/transgressions, and those differences will favor israel as a more humane occupier!!!

Having said that, i do not condone occupation of any kind, but we're talking about a delicate matter. Do you honestly believe that Israel wants to control a population of arabs that's constantly hostile?! What does israel have to gain by this? This was forced upon them by the birth of their nation through the belligerance of dying colonial powers, and the belligerance of Arab nations to look out for their "brothers".
Last edited by stinky on Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:36 am

ilia wrote:Look, there is certainly plenty of animosity and many hard-liners in power.
Innocent arabs probably die every day.

But do you honestly think that if the balance of power was reversed -- if the palestineans and, say, Syria, had the military power of Israel, and Israel was defending with Katyushas -- the situation would be a mirror of what we have now? Because, to me it sure looks like the Jews would have "been driven into the sea" at the very first opportunity. Each and every one of them.
Agreed. The jews would be slaughtered immediately, without pause for humanity, in the blink of an eye.
Last edited by stinky on Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

deva
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Re: [POLITICAL] - LEBANON

Post by deva » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:10 am

sweetjesus wrote:
atom_b wrote:
sweetjesus wrote:
atom_b i hear ya, but there is no lebanese army... seriously they dont have shit over there to fight with or anything, hence why people accept hezbollah.

the irony is that lebanon is 40% christian and rely on a muslim group to protect them... if your country had an army and did not want hezbollah, wouldnt you have done something about it by now?

minimal, the reason i posted this stuff was because it is NOT in the mainstream media. ... they show pictures of israelis bleeding but not the bodies that are drained of blood on the other side.
And that goes to show that hezbollah should not be there in the first place, and start a war which had been over for six years. Now the shit is on...

they kidnapped soldiers (not civilians) to get back lebanese women and children which are still being held by israel despite the war being over for 6 years as you mention.

israel refused to give up those prisoners after the war... those people are someones mother or someones daughter.

not to mention that the so called kidnapping was in Lebanon. If Israeli soldiers are in your country, detaining them is not kidnapping, it is self defense against an aggressor

deva
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Post by deva » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:20 am

M. Bréqs wrote:
forge wrote:I've been trying not to get in this debate - I know nothing about the history or politics of the region really - but I think it's almost irrelevant

I think the reason this is disgusting is because Israel are acting like bullies and bombing the crap out of innocents over 2 soldiers

Isnt Mossad supposed to be the best secret service in the world?

then why kill so many innocent people? Why not send in Mossad to be a bit more discreet?
They're bombing the crap out of innocents because the racist, genocidal maniacs who launched 1000+ rockets at them for over 6 years are cowardly hiding behind those innocents.

Every drop of innocent blood is on Hizbollah's and Hamas' hands on this one.

This is about more than 2 or 3 soldiers. It's about crippling the capacity of Hizbollah and Hamas to continue terror attacks / rocket bombardment. Peaceful overtures have failed - what other option do they have?

Imagine if Israel didn't react the way the did. The cross-border raids would be celebrated as great victories, emboldening Hamas and Hizbollah (and other Islamofascists and Jihadists) to step up their operations.

Israel's overwhelming military response was necessary for two reasons;

1. To deter future kidnappings / murders / terrorism (diminish enemy intent)
2. To cripple the Hamas bomb factories / Hizbollah rockets (diminish enemy capability)

Israel is the aggressor in the region.

Of course the propaganda is so one sided that even intelligent people are brainwashed and it is almost impossible to have an open discussion based on anything but enforced opinion.

The U.S. and Israel are the aggressors pushing the world towards war.

deva
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Post by deva » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:29 am

M. Bréqs wrote:
noisetonepause wrote:
Breqs - I really wish you'd stop using the term 'islamofascist'. It lowers your credibility to below the freezing point. I don't want to start yet another debate with you about Islam, but all it does is make you look incredibly biased.

-Paws
...Point taken. I use Jihadist and Islamofascist to differentiate "those guys" from muslims as a whole. I consider Jihadist as somebody who wants to fight and kill the infidel, and Islamofascist as a muslim who wants to impose sharia law (and therefore Dhimmi status) on the infidel.

But I agree, without defining that term, it can come off as very biased. I'll stop using it.

How would you describe Fundamentalist Islamic people with a view of subjugating non-muslims through violence then? Is there a convenient word for it?

it is not just a matter of defining the term but applying it evenly. Say islamofascist and people nod their head, say zionifascist and you are labeled anti-semitic. Then there are the Christofascists.

You are applying the term unevenly and in a biased manner as if one version is somehow so evil beyond the others. It is just not the case.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:34 am

deva wrote: Say islamofascist and people nod their head, say zionifascist and you are labeled anti-semitic. Then there are the Christofascists.
it's disingenuous to use that term in that context. Zionism is not a religion.
Last edited by stinky on Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

deva
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Post by deva » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:37 am

stinky wrote:
I didn't say i condone actions of an occupying entity, but you cannot compare this to a pogrom or a holocaust. And, if you look at any occupying nation throughout history, and compare their actions to the actions of Israel as an occupying entity, there will be a huge difference in statistics in regards to human rights violations/transgressions, and those differences will favor israel as a more humane occupier!!!
Such a comparison does not turn out as you suppose. Israel is not humane, they just have better PR due to enough control of the media stories that come out.

An aquaintance of mine is still traumatized from watching Israeli soldiers blowing holes through Palestinian children for no significant reason at all, and mainstream western media witnessing it and not even seeing it as noteworthy. The truth is not being represented

deva
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Post by deva » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:39 am

stinky wrote:
Say islamofascist and people nod their head, say zionifascist and you are labeled anti-semitic. Then there are the Christofascists.
it's disingenuous to use that term in that context. Zionism is not a religion.
there is always an excuse

stinky
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Post by stinky » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:26 am

deva wrote:there is always an excuse
call it what you want, i was just commenting on your use of the language. I wasn't excusing anything and understood your comparison, but again, zionism is not a religion, and in that context was incorrect. Not everyone who lives in israel is a zionist, including people in the government, who write policy.
deva wrote:Such a comparison does not turn out as you suppose. Israel is not humane, they just have better PR due to enough control of the media stories that come out.
It's funny because most jews/israeli's that i know say the exact same thing about the media machine against them, particularly CNN.
deva wrote:An aquaintance of mine is still traumatized from watching Israeli soldiers blowing holes through Palestinian children for no significant reason at all, and mainstream western media witnessing it and not even seeing it as noteworthy. The truth is not being represented
This is a horrible state of war. It happens on both sides, and it's not just israel that is doing this type of thing. In 2000, not even a month after the start of the 2nd intifada, 3 reservists wandered into Ramallah unknowingly (they got lost driving back to their base). They were detained by the Palestinian police at the station. Within an hour, a crowd of over a thousand broke into the station, ripped the soldiers apart with their bare hands, threw them down into the crowds and dragged them through the streets dismembered. If that's not brutality, i don't know what is. For every story you tell about palestinians dying, there are just as many about israelis dying.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2527/press104.htm

The difference though is that Israeli's do not revel in these types of attrocities, whereas palestinians do. Israelis do not constantly show images designed to arouse hatred, unlike Palestinians. Compare the coverage given in Israel to the footage from the Ramallah lynching of Oct. 12, 2000 with the constant repetition on TV and in the school curriculum of the footage and of reenactments of the Muhamed A Durah affair two weeks earlier in the Palestinian media.

After that lynching, children were running around reenacting it, raising their 'bloody' hands in homage to the Ramallah lynch mob.

You talk about the israeli PR machine... you don't know jack, son. The israeli media is one of the most self-critical in the world. When the IDF accused the UN of using their ambulances to move Kassam rockets and the evidence failed to provide proof, the Israeli press denounced the mistake sharply: "Israel behaved with reckless haste and injured its pretensions to superiority over the Palestinians with regard to credibility." The Israeli media constantly debates the merits and losses of their morality and human indignation. There's no such thing anywhere else in the middle east that's even remotely comparable. If you're going to state inconclusively that it's "Israel's PR machine stupid", than you haven't a fucking clue. Everyone has PR!!! DOh. The PLO were/are masters of it.

Here's the difference. That friend of yours feels bad. My buddies in the israeli army feel bad. This isn't their choice. There's no easy fix. There's no simple answer, however much you want to blame israel, or palestine, or lebanon, or iran, or syria. But, there's not a person in israel that truly wants to go out and kill every arab. There are societal pressure that you're not considering. There are conscientious objectors everywhere, and that's really all anyone ever talks about there. And, the only thing they really want is, to be left alone, on their little piece of the pie. They're not looking to conquer anyone.

Flip the script, palestinians (and to a greater degree, the arab nation) would like nothing less than to see israel's demise. They say it every chance they get. They're not living in reality.. you can't undo a nation! It's just not possible. You've probably never been there, have you. You don't know jack. You're just reading your own version of the propaganda.

If you want a simple solution, have the israeli government pay to repopulate palestinians to respective arab nations. Give them a sum of money to get a decent plot of land (we all know there's plenty there) in an adjacent arab country of their choice. Let them pick. If they are their 'brothers', Syria, Iran, Saudi, Lebanon, Yemen, Morocco, Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, etc, etc... won't have a problem taking them in. We all know that won't happen, and that's not a simple solution, don't we. If it were, it could have been done already. I guarantee the Israeli government would pay for it (even though it amounts to extortion, but that's perspective and trivial in this regard). The fact of the matter is that arab nations perpetuate this to provoke israeli to attack, to make them look like the aggressor. You're looking at it onesided.

Of course, Israel isn't innocent. No-one is, that's the point. Yes, Israel kidnaps palesinians. When you've been fighting so long, you can really rationalize anything. But, i honestly think that israeli's trying hard to keep their moral ground, and the same cannot be said for the opposing side.

We all know how Islamists treat their woman. Shit, Shiite Muslims beat and cut themselves to pay tribute to Muslim saint Imam Hussein during the festival of Ashura. They still cut off the hands of thieves, and cut the clitoris off of females in some parts. I'm sorry, this is not moral.
Last edited by stinky on Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hambone1
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Post by hambone1 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:01 am

That's brilliant, Stinky. I learned a lot from that.

It's refreshing to see someone who doesn't just ignorantly bitch and complain, but can present a clear picture substantiated by fact, unbiased by (often ignorant) personal opinion, and with a possible solution.

War IS atrocious. There's no excuse for it.

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:54 am

stinky wrote: And, if you look at any occupying nation throughout history, and compare their actions to the actions of Israel as an occupying entity, there will be a huge difference in statistics in regards to human rights violations/transgressions, and those differences will favor israel as a more humane occupier!!!

Having said that, i do not condone occupation of any kind, but we're talking about a delicate matter. Do you honestly believe that Israel wants to control a population of arabs that's constantly hostile?! What does israel have to gain by this? This was forced upon them by the birth of their nation through the belligerance of dying colonial powers, and the belligerance of Arab nations to look out for their "brothers".
Nothing was forced upon them that way, England came up with yet another brilliant plan in a long list of colonial chess playing.They weren't forced into doing anything.... and BTW the jews I know are not at all for Israel's actions towards the palestinians. They all see it as if the group consciousness of Israel decided to become the abuser, instead of the abused.

Another thing, Israel has been on the blacklist for human rights violations for a long time, the blocking vote in the UN against condemning them is always America..... that doesn't sound to me like the sort of equanimious policies that you're talking about. Israel has had in the past, and has in it's fundamentalist factions, a manifest destiny in the middle east.
They don't want to control the Palestinians, they want to take the land. Why else would they allow settlers in the gaza strip? It's great they got rid of them, but I doubt that's the last we'll see of Israeli expansionism, hope I'm wrong.

All of that adds up to arab hostilities today. It's possible that all sides could wind down you know? Sure there were problems in the past, but the truth is people get over it. China an America were basically at war in Korea, and in the 70's we started doing business with them. In some ways the fact that China would be a fierce opponent in battle made that happen. we couldn't get rid of them, so might as well do business with them.. Ok that's probably not going to happen, especially when fundamentalists on all sides are still in power.

technatural
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religion

Post by technatural » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:15 am

Religion is the most subjective dangerous form of spiritualism.

No matter which one!

In this discussion. IT"S STOLEN LAND...


Peace

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:21 am

stinky wrote:The Israeli media constantly debates the merits and losses of their morality and human indignation. There's no such thing anywhere else in the middle east that's even remotely comparable.

And, the only thing they really want is, to be left alone, on their little piece of the pie. They're not looking to conquer anyone.

Flip the script, palestinians (and to a greater degree, the arab nation) would like nothing less than to see israel's demise.


If you want a simple solution, have the israeli government pay to repopulate palestinians to respective arab nations.

Of course, Israel isn't innocent. No-one is, that's the point. Yes, Israel kidnaps palesinians. When you've been fighting so long, you can really rationalize anything. But, i honestly think that israeli's trying hard to keep their moral ground, and the same cannot be said for the opposing side.

We all know how Islamists treat their woman. Shit, Shiite Muslims beat and cut themselves to pay tribute to Muslim saint Imam Hussein during the festival of Ashura. They still cut off the hands of thieves, and cut the clitoris off of females in some parts. I'm sorry, this is not moral.
Al Jazeera is even more self critical than the Israeli media.

Sure there are a ton of Israelis that are not for the way it's being handled, just like her in the states people don't all like what GWB does. It doesn't change the fact that the Israelis have tried to systematically drive out the Palestinians.... The scenario you stated of then driving them away completely, that really sounds fair doesn't it?

The last paragraph... you just proved how insanely biased you are, WTF does any of that have to do with the Palestinians? Like they all go home on saturday night beat their wives and wake up Sunday to cut their head and a few ladies body parts...... and jews are in control of the international banking cartel, they make great bankers because they are so stingy, they don't eat pork etc.. :roll:

the French all eat snails, and Americans are all fat, arrogant, and undereducated right wing christians....

computo
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Post by computo » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:31 am

NO shit...

You actually rationalize the killing of innocents...

Try to be benevolent, and concede that Israel is no saint...

but then, of course, like clockwork, you raise clitoris removal, and an eye for and eye.

perhaps to them, circumcision is horrific, I dont know.

You say they're fighting hard to keep their moral ground...

I say this is purely a matter of propaganda.

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