[POLITICAL] - LEBANON

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stinky
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Post by stinky » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:45 am

Machinesworking wrote:BTW the jews I know are not at all for Israel's actions towards the palestinians. They all see it as if the group consciousness of Israel decided to become the abuser, instead of the abused.
We said the exact same thing there..
Machinesworking wrote: Another thing, Israel has been on the blacklist for human rights violations for a long time,
So is the US, so what. That's what the blacklist is for. To foster change. That's what Israel does. It continues to work towards a more humanitarian way of dealing with issues, and balancing it's own security issues as well. It's not a black and white deal. Change takes time to occur.
Machinesworking wrote: They don't want to control the Palestinians, they want to take the land. Why else would they allow settlers in the gaza strip? It's great they got rid of them, but I doubt that's the last we'll see of Israeli expansionism, hope I'm wrong.
That's not necessarily certain either. Ben-Gurion postulated on this as well as Moshe Dayan, and both of them were in agreement that controlling another population was not in the interest of Israeli national security. Ariel Sharon fostered the growth of the settlement movement in his capacity as Minister of Agriculture during the late 70's, and yes, there was a plan for the expansion Israel, known to expand to Greater Israel. But, there were always disagreements about this, and the settlement movement was never a majority of the population, but a minority. Unfortunately, because it's a democracy, and the way political parties work in Israel, unity governments needed to form, and policies needed to be made to create those unity governments.

Now, the point that i'm trying to make is that, this isn't a majority of the population of israel. This is a fringe element of the population that manipulates the rest of society through the political process. Sounds familiar? US, Britain, Etc, etc. This happens in every country. Name one government that actually panders to the consciencious majority? Doesn't happen here. It certainly doesn't happen in Britain. Isn't Blair part of Labor? Haven't they been revolting against his policies for years, yet he maintains?Does it happen in Lebanon? Obviously not. How about Germany? France? What's the deal?

So, to characterize Israeli's as bloodthirsty, money grubbing, land hungry.. is disingenuous, and is just as stereotypically unacceptable for you to be stereotyping them.

I can honestly guarantee, Machinesworking, that you don't know what the middle east is like. You're hearing about it second hand. You don't know the intricacies of how to deal with the different customs.

Machinesworking wrote: All of that adds up to arab hostilities today.
The fact of the matter is that nothing anyone can do will denote those hostilities. Let me explain quickly by stating that the entire arab nation feels disenfranchised from a millenia of assumed humiliation. First, through the crusades, then the ottomans, then britain, then the US. Each time, those hostilities add to the general feeling of humiliation that the entire arab nation feels. Again, this will never go away. If it wasn't the jews, it would be something else, most likely the christians.

And one final thing... everyone who keeps stating falsely that this conflict between muslims and jews have been going on for centuries needs to reeducate themselves. This conflict was started by the British redrawing the lines in the middle east, but that's where it ends. Prior to that, jews and muslims were living in PEACE. In fact, during the crusades, they were fighting together, helping each other from getting slaughtered by the christians. So, if you really want to blame somebody, blame the fall of the roman empire and the rise of the catholic church, and the crusades, because that was the original source of these hostilities, not the jews.
Last edited by stinky on Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.

noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:53 am

jonathono2000 wrote:
noisetonepause wrote:
jonathono2000 wrote:Hezbollah is to Lebanon as Al Queda is to Afghanistan.
No.
No. What?
No, you don't know what you're talking about. You're seeing ghosts.

If you want a nice, easy analogy for Hizbullah, think IRA.

Al-Qa'ida was never an organisation like Hizbullah, which has run for office in Lebanon, performs social functions, etc., and Al-Qa'ida is hardly an organisation of any kind any more.

-Paws
Suit #1: I mean, have you got any insight as to why a bright boy like this would jeopardize the lives of millions?
Suit #2: No, sir, he says he does this sort of thing for fun.

noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:58 am

stinky wrote:We all know how Islamists treat their woman. ... They still cut the clitoris off of females in some parts. I'm sorry, this is not moral.
It's not an Islamic practice. It's done in certain circles in Sudan and that area by Christians, Animists, and Muslims alike. Outside these areas it is looked down upon and regarded as disgusting by all Muslims.
Suit #1: I mean, have you got any insight as to why a bright boy like this would jeopardize the lives of millions?
Suit #2: No, sir, he says he does this sort of thing for fun.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:58 am

computo wrote:NO shit...

You actually rationalize the killing of innocents...

Try to be benevolent, and concede that Israel is no saint...

but then, of course, like clockwork, you raise clitoris removal, and an eye for and eye.

perhaps to them, circumcision is horrific, I dont know.

You say they're fighting hard to keep their moral ground...

I say this is purely a matter of propaganda.
Of course not, don't be so pompous. I would never rationalize the killing of innocent people. There are however, two sides to every story, and the fact remains that you're not able to see both sides of the argument at any length. There is propanganda all around. You don't know what's it's like to get constantly attacked, do you? Put yourself in that place. I don't think you can postulate thus. In fact, i don't think you're able to... you haven't shown any ability to do that. I've talked about both sides, and i can sit here and rattle off about how they BOTH feel.

You just want to sit there on your high horse, in your comfortable house, spouting nothing but Israel this and Israel that. I'll sit here and post about all your conspiracy theories, and discuss them. In fact, i agree with alot of what you said, but i don't agree that anyone would want to do this because they get pleasure out of it, which is what you're inferring. You're denigrating a whole population with your innuendo, and perpetuating these notions that you've not had a hand in experiencing in the slightest, and it's rather arrogant. Even Sweetjesus, the original poster of this thread, is biased.

I'm not biased in the least bit. I what is going on. But, the fact remains that in Israel, there's a saying, "Arabs only understand the sword." They can only be met with strength, or they will take advantage you. This is the mentality of Israelis, and many people in Europe think that Israel retalition for attacks is disproportionate. Well, if it was any less, things would be alot worse. In arab society, people do take advantage of weakness. That's the nature of their society. You, computo, can't fathom what living like that is like. So, you're armchair referee play is weak. Instead of adding to the hostilities, add something positive.
Last edited by stinky on Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:07 am

noisetonepause wrote:It's not an Islamic practice. It's done in certain circles in Sudan and that area by Christians, Animists, and Muslims alike. Outside these areas it is looked down upon and regarded as disgusting by all Muslims.
Sorry, you're wrong there too. Here's an article from 2004 talking about the merits of 'debating' female circumcision in Egypt!!!

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... 9503543886

In general, yes most muslim 'countries' do not 'condone' this practice (which has only been recently, since western countries have complained about human/woman's right issues), but that doesn't mean it still doesn't happen, discretely. Kind of like honor killings, people don't talk about it openly, but are still expected to carry it out to maintain respect and keep their honor within their communities. By the way, in Egypt in 1997, a ban on the practice was overturned. Additionally, you mentioned sudan like it was not muslim, but a majority of the country is. Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia, Kenya and Chad... regardless of whether or not the majority is muslim, muslims there do practice this.

Here's some more info:

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Sharia/fe ... ision.html

http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/posi ... s/fgm.html

if you look here,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision

you'll note that

"Although it is practiced by African Muslims, it is also known to exist throughout the Middle East, though it is veiled in secrecy, unlike in parts of Africa, where it is practiced relatively openly. The practice occurs particularly in northern Saudi Arabia, southern Jordan, and Iraq, and there is also circumstantial evidence to suggest it is present in Syria, western Iran, and among the Bedouin population of Israel."
Last edited by stinky on Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:24 am

Machinesworking wrote: The last paragraph... you just proved how insanely biased you are, WTF does any of that have to do with the Palestinians? Like they all go home on saturday night beat their wives and wake up Sunday to cut their head and a few ladies body parts...... and jews are in control of the international banking cartel, they make great bankers because they are so stingy, they don't eat pork etc.. Rolling Eyes

the French all eat snails, and Americans are all fat, arrogant, and undereducated right wing christians....
I'm sorry, you can't get sarcasm from text as well as you can from speech. I already posted later thus:

"So, to characterize Israeli's as bloodthirsty, money grubbing, land hungry.. is disingenuous, and is just as stereotypically unacceptable for you to be stereotyping them."

But, i digress:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=17707

http://www.overateacup.com/ravitch1.html

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_conte ... article=94

Yes, in Israeli society there is inequality. The israeli-arabs don't have the same rights as the israeli jews. But, that's happens everywhere. Look at France. It even happens in the Netherlands.
Last edited by stinky on Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

acehole
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Post by acehole » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:22 am

stinky wrote: The difference though is that Israeli's do not revel in these types of attrocities, whereas palestinians do. Israelis do not constantly show images designed to arouse hatred, unlike Palestinians.
Sure. Thats why theres a Holocaust museum in every major city in the world.

Im sorry but they have campaigned for 60 years playing the sympathy card. So far that it has become a jailable offence in europe to even debate the holocaust. They are the first ones to cry bloody murder in the media at the slightest mishap, yet try to opress the voices of those that speak out against the genocide in Palestine and soon to be lebanon.

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0417-06.htm

Benshik
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Post by Benshik » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:44 am

stinky,

would you mind writing the name of the person you are quoting?
it would make this interesting debate much easier to follow... ;)

lola
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Post by lola » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:36 pm


sweetjesus
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Post by sweetjesus » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:53 pm

acehole wrote:
stinky wrote: The difference though is that Israeli's do not revel in these types of attrocities, whereas palestinians do. Israelis do not constantly show images designed to arouse hatred, unlike Palestinians.
Sure. Thats why theres a Holocaust museum in every major city in the world.

Im sorry but they have campaigned for 60 years playing the sympathy card. So far that it has become a jailable offence in europe to even debate the holocaust. They are the first ones to cry bloody murder in the media at the slightest mishap, yet try to opress the voices of those that speak out against the genocide in Palestine and soon to be lebanon.

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0417-06.htm

and this is the bottom line... Israel has learned from its father how to play the with us or without us stance very well.

USA doesnt actually control anyone, theyre great at being one step ahead of their opponents and letting their opponents throw themselves into a bad position.

They let the japanese bomb pearl harbour, some theories backed by some evidence suggests USA let 9/11 happen and in this case, they are letting Israel go nuts ... do you think the mafia bosses do all the shooting themselves?

Britain is to America what America is to Israel, and its actually since british involvement of the last 2 centuries that the middle east has become a mess.

Why do you think Iran is fundamentalist now? (I'm iranian so you better know your shit before answering) Why is the Taliban in afghanistan? Why did Saddam get in power?

The truth is not so black and white and all I'm saying is that this batch of killings is no different to any other killings. Innocent people dead. We must put an end to violence now.

It starts at home guys. Why is it in america, its ok to show people killing each other on TV, but an accidental nipple pokin out causes hundreds of thousands of dollars of fines? Violence is ok i guess. .. and if violence is ok on channel 9 on TV, then its definately ok on CNN.

Hambone is not shocked at an image of a torso ripped to shreds because of doom the game... well damn, the media has desensitised another person and that's what this is a media war, an information war. The media has not accepted any responsibility in this whatsoever and continue to report what sells, can't blame them they're a business after all, but we seem to forget before we made money, we were born humans. No child in a normal situation would wanna see another kid dead, and no kid would let another kid die if they could stop it, so why as adults are we letting this happen?

Come up with a solution, any solution, do whatever it takes but for goodness sake, please stop killing others.

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Post by forge » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:57 pm

top post shawn

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:56 pm

stinky wrote:I'm not biased in the least bit. I what is going on. But, the fact remains that in Israel, there's a saying, "Arabs only understand the sword." They can only be met with strength, or they will take advantage you. This is the mentality of Israelis, and many people in Europe think that Israel retalition for attacks is disproportionate. Well, if it was any less, things would be alot worse. In arab society, people do take advantage of weakness. That's the nature of their society. You, computo, can't fathom what living like that is like. So, you're armchair referee play is weak. Instead of adding to the hostilities, add something positive.
That has to be one of the most unintentionally funny posts. Sorry stinky, but you just lost a bit of credibility with me....
stinky wrote: Yes, in Israeli society there is inequality. The israeli-arabs don't have the same rights as the israeli jews. But, that's happens everywhere. Look at France. It even happens in the Netherlands.
As far as I know about France, a French citizen has all the rights regardless of race or religion.

You once again toss off the fact that the Palestinians are being marginalized and excommunicated from their land like it's no big deal, then paint the arab world in general like they are the ones we shoul be worried about...... it's the typical tactic of a colonialist, the problems that result are the responsibility of the conquered people, it's their fault that they are treated the way they are, if they didn't behave so savagely, we wouldn't have to be here in the first place etc.......

Female circumcision, WTF does that have to do with the conflict? Sure it sucks, but Israelis driving out Palestinians, and the resulting conflict have nothing at all to do with that IMO. To me, it's about dehumanizing the enemy, and you consistently have dehumanized the Palestinians and arab world at large.

AFA understanding the middle east etc. I know a 55 year old lesbian from SF who goes to Palestine on an almost yearly basis. She would be first in line to condemn the Palestinians if they were all cutting off clitoris's etc.. She claims that sort of thing happens with the fundamentalists, of which she would want no part of. She comes across like you do, totally biased towards the Palestinians with little sympathy for Israel.

You seem like a decent person, but you are arguing emotionally about this, you go on about knowing Israelis and stating that you can't understand what it's like to live near arabs you portray as bloodthirsty. You've chosen a side more than you think, and it makes it funny in a strange way talking to you about it..

Anyway I'm late for work..

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Post by djadonis206 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:07 pm

Machinesworking wrote: Anyway I'm late for work..
NI email?
Ableton | Elektron

Music

stinky
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Post by stinky » Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:33 pm

Machinesworking wrote: Sorry stinky, but you just lost a bit of credibility with me....
I could give a shit? I never said anything hypocritical. I pointed to the Israeli mindset:

"But, the fact remains that in Israel, there's a saying, "Arabs only understand the sword." "

Which must be understood, because that's how it relates to the Arab mindset.
Machinesworking wrote: As far as I know about France, a French citizen has all the rights regardless of race or religion.
Well, there you go, picking and choosing who to be biased towards. As far as i'm aware, there were race riots in France at the end of all last year. Did you have your head in sand? And, who was doing the majority of the rioting? The arab population, that feels disenfranchised within that society, no less. Sounds like you need to do some more research before making unfound statements.
Machinesworking wrote:You once again toss off the fact that the Palestinians are being marginalized and excommunicated from their land like it's no big deal, then paint the arab world in general like they are the ones we shoul be worried about...... it's the typical tactic of a colonialist, the problems that result are the responsibility of the conquered people, it's their fault that they are treated the way they are, if they didn't behave so savagely, we wouldn't have to be here in the first place etc.......
No, i haven't. You and i have consistently agreed on a vast majority of topics, but this one i must defer, because you're not looking at it objectively, and i'm pointing out pointedly that of course they shouldn't be marginalized, and excommunicated, but there's no way to integrate the 2 societies together. Have ever read the PLO manifesto written by Arafat? Or the Hamas Manifesto? They both call unequivically for the destruction of the state of israel. In fact, in Arafat's manifesto, he typically describes a scenario in which palestinians integrate themselves within Israeli soceity so as to cause social upheaval and torment.

So, if there's not way to integrate them, they must seperate. Which lands are you talking about them being returned to? Pre '48? Pre '67? Again, you haven't addressed the issues that palestinians haven't been patriated to Arab lands. Jordan, yes, initially, but they've been kicked out as being a hostile "nation within a nation", and trying to overthrow the government there. So, no one's willing to take them in? There's not even the incling of hospitality for that route, from their so called "brothers." Please address that?
Machinesworking wrote: Female circumcision, WTF does that have to do with the conflict? Sure it sucks, but Israelis driving out Palestinians, and the resulting conflict have nothing at all to do with that IMO. To me, it's about dehumanizing the enemy, and you consistently have dehumanized the Palestinians and arab world at large.
I'm not dehumanizing anybody. They can do that for themselves, if they so choose. I'm merely pointing out societal truths, which manifest themselves directly into social conscience. I pointed to female circumcision as worse case scenario for intolerance within their society. By and large, a majority of arab society does find those kinds of acts deplorable, but tolerable. It's the toleration of dehumanization that i'm referring to, which can also be said of Israel society, and any society in general. However, there are fundamental difference in what is tolerated, and the differences suggest the norms for those respective societies.
Machinesworking wrote: AFA understanding the middle east etc. I know a 55 year old lesbian from SF who goes to Palestine on an almost yearly basis. She would be first in line to condemn the Palestinians if they were all cutting off clitoris's etc.. She claims that sort of thing happens with the fundamentalists, of which she would want no part of. She comes across like you do, totally biased towards the Palestinians with little sympathy for Israel.
DON'T presume to know shit about me. I have more sympathy for the palestinians than anyone here. I've done my time, fighting for their rights, and i won't go into that here. I'm just berating the needless Israel bashing that goes on as anti-israel, without merits for the trevails of their society. I haven't dehumanized the palestinians in any of my statements, and time and time again, i continue to state that i don't approve of israeli tactics. But i also don't approve of bashing the society as a whole, but you don't know the state of which they live. You live in Seattle. Ever been surrounded by enemies? NO. Ever been in the military? Military reserves? Israel has been in a state of war since it's conception. Everyone there has to go to the army after highschool, by law. After they finish the army, they have to stay in the reserves for at least another 20 years. This is not a choice, but a nessecity. They don't choose this military lifestyle, it's a nessecity.
Machinesworking wrote:what it's like to live near arabs you portray as bloodthirsty.

That's a fallacy!! Please, quote where i stated that in any of my posts!!!

M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:39 pm

I have discussed the reasons I feel Israel is morally, historically and politically entitled to exist (in peace!). In earlier posts I explained my position on why the Palestinians' worst enemies are other muslim nations.

So I won't repeat myself. Agree or disagree as you see fit.

However, there is one other argumentative path I can take with this. It's the pragmatic approach.

Israel will not go away. Not with their nuclear weapons. Not with their conventional military. Not the strongest diversified economy in the region. (The gulf oil-rich states may have stronger economies, but they're not diverse, thus they'll crumble when the oil runs out).

So, from a purely pragmatic point of view, co-existance is the only option. (The Two state solution...) People like Computo can spout their impotent, jew-hating venom all they want, but Israel isn't going anywhere. And I'm glad for that.

So, what's the solution? It's to share the land. Israel has made efforts in this direction, but the hard-liners on the Arab / Muslim side want 100% of the region - they want to eradicate Israel, not co-exist with it.

So, from that perspective alone, they're fucking bound to fail, and cause nothing but misery in the meantime. If Israel can PROVE that they're not going anywhere, prove that they're there to stay, then maybe the muslims, arab populations and the various racist states / organizations in the region will finally GET IT THROUGH THEIR THICK SKULLS that their lives will only improve once they accept Israel's existance.

They're cutting their noses off to spite thier own faces.

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