[POLITICAL] - LEBANON

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sweetjesus
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Post by sweetjesus » Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:53 pm

M. Bréqs wrote: They're cutting their noses off to spite thier own faces.
Actually it's Israel who is doing that... Hamas was days away from acknowledging Israels right to exist before this... what do you think now?

pulsoc
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Post by pulsoc » Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:56 pm

Hey lets give Palestine back to the Palestinians and give the jews Texas!

We solve the mid-east conflict and the border debate!

subterFUSE
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Post by subterFUSE » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:04 pm

pulsoc wrote:Hey lets give Palestine back to the Palestinians and give the jews Texas!

We solve the mid-east conflict and the border debate!

:lol:


You're too late.

We already discussed this.


Except I suggested we give them Death Valley. Texas is too big. Israel is a tiny country, so we don't need to give them such a large piece of US land. Death Valley is perfect. It's smaller than Texas, and hot as fuck, and otherwise useless land. No one in the USA wants to live there, so nothing is lost giving it away. They should feel right at home.... and they would be protected.

Perfect solution, really. :wink:



Only problem is.... you can't give the "holy land" to the Palestinians either. That would be unfair.... So the only solution to this part of the problem is that no one should get the holy land.

Just nuke it. Turn the whole area into a steaming crater.... with so much residual radiation left in the soil that if any living creature sets foot near it for decades, they'll melt like a stick of butter in the oven.


Problem solved. They can't share.... then no one wins. It's just like what a mother does when 2 brothers are fighting over the same toy. She takes it away, and neither brother gets it. Fair for everybody.

That's my solution, anyway. :roll:
Last edited by subterFUSE on Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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rasputin
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Suggested solution to Middle East problem

Post by rasputin » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:09 pm

subterFUSE wrote:Forge, that's not such a bad idea. Move Israel to the USA.


Give them some land... we have plenty of it. Their country is tiny, so we wouldn't have to give up much. Plus, their land is a freakin' desert... so give them Death Valley, or something. No one in the USA wants that place anyway, so nothing lost. It's hot as hell, so they should feel right at home.


Then they would be well protected, because they'd be in the USA.

:wink:
A friend of mine has suggested for years that Israel work out a deal with Mexico to move to Baja California. Of course I can't speak for the Mexicans who live there now, but I get a feeling that they would actually make an accomodation...would certainly solve a lot of problems and provide an economic boost to the region. The only real problem would be water as most of it comes from the Colorado river and is drunk up by agriculture, San Diego and Arizona.

r.

pulsoc
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Post by pulsoc » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:10 pm

Hah sweet. Now if we can package some "war on terror" language around it we're a go!
subterFUSE wrote:
pulsoc wrote:Hey lets give Palestine back to the Palestinians and give the jews Texas!

We solve the mid-east conflict and the border debate!

:lol:


You're too late.

We already discussed this.


Except I suggested we give them Death Valley. Texas is too big. Israel is a tiny country, so we don't need to give them such a large piece of US land. Death Valley is perfect. It's smaller than Texas, and hot as fuck, and otherwise useless land. No one in the USA wants to live there, so nothing is lost giving it away. They should feel right at home.... and they would be protected.

Perfect solution, really. :wink:

Benshik
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Post by Benshik » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:10 pm

pulsoc wrote:Hey lets give Palestine back to the Palestinians and give the jews Texas!
yeah, and lets wipe out Europe of all its inhabitants and genetically resurrect Neanderthal men. after all, they were the first ones to "own" this land...

btw, do u deliberately put capital letters to all names except on "Jews"?

djadonis206
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Post by djadonis206 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:15 pm

pulsoc wrote:Hey lets give Palestine back to the Palestinians and give the jews Texas!

We solve the mid-east conflict and the border debate!
Insert bad joke about the Abe's grandfathers...
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stinky
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Post by stinky » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:17 pm

sweetjesus wrote:Hamas was days away from acknowledging Israels right to exist before this...
So someone forced them to kidnap 1 soldier and kill 2 others? Do you deliberately disassociate the transgressions of one, to focus on the transgressions of the other, who in your mind is less righteous?

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:28 pm

Elements within the Israeli military have been planning for & preparing for another major incursion into Lebanon for the past 5-6 years.
The excuse of atempting to specifically target Hizbollah weapons caches & rocket installations which are 'unfortunately' in suburban areas is pretty patheric if one actually examines where the strikes have been falling, with recent reports of grain silos & vegetable storage depots being struck - as well as vital civilian infrastructure (another breach of the 4th geneva convention).
Maybe there's something sinister about Lebanese vegetables I am not aware of?
This would be like England carpet bombing Southern Ireland (where Sinn Feinn ahve historically had members of government) due to IRA action & targetting teh airports, ports & potato storage facilities, whilst killing masses of civilians, including tourists in Dublin - ask yourselves, would England have gotten away with that?
Some Hizbollah rockets actually have been targetted at Israeli Military facilities & weapons storage ares, which are strategically placed in areas with high Arab populations (& minimal if any shelter facilities) such as around Nazareth - although getting info. on this is hard, as the areas concerned are under military law at the moment & the main reliable source of information (Al Jazeera's Israel based reporters) is being all but completely shut down & censored.
Recent reports point to Israel putting pressure on Syria, claiming they have proof that they have the captive soldiers (or something like that) - this is teh same politically controlled Israeli 'intelligence' that gave us so much unreliable information concerning ostensible WMD's within Iraq - leading to the fruition of a long term Israeli strategic goal - namely the occupation of Iraq.
Last edited by diverdee on Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:34 pm

stinky wrote:
sweetjesus wrote:Hamas was days away from acknowledging Israels right to exist before this...
So someone forced them to kidnap 1 soldier and kill 2 others? Do you deliberately disassociate the transgressions of one, to focus on the transgressions of the other, who in your mind is less righteous?
Hamas had already made many diplomatic moves & statemnets which were ignored & sidelined, the acceptance of the Prisoners statement (which had been pretty much accepted before until Abbas made a move intended to outfox Hamas) was just the culmination of those moves.
One has to also remember that the kidnapped Israeli soldiers were tank gunners at a time when Israel was dropping Hundreds of shells a day on Gaza & the death toll just within July already stood at around 20 -30 (I don't have the exact figures to hand) & that the day before the 'kidnapping' of the active military personnle the IDF had crossed into Gaza proper (palestinian territory) & kidnapped two palestinians who it accused (although I have seen no evidence) of manufacturing Quassam rockets.
They will likely join the hundreds of other palestinians who have been kidnapped from palestinian territory & put under 'administrative detainment' - i.e. held in camps for long periods of timke with no formal charges made against them, with no access to lawyers etc. whilst they are routinely tortured, as attested to by Amnesty Internationsl, the red cross/crescent & otehr independent organizations within Palestine.

Hamas had already stated that they were of the opinion that resistance was only to be allowed in areas that Israel had occupied post 67, & that no attacks were to be made in Israel proper - as was their earlier policy before February 25, 1994 when Baruch Goldstein, a Jewish settler, shot and killed 29 Muslim worshippers in the Mosque of the Patriarch in Hebron - It was after this act & the events that followed that Hamas began following the horrendous policy of using suicide bombers within Israel itself.
Similarly Hizbollah had it's genesis in the 1982 invasion by Israel of Lebanon, when the historically rather quiescent Shia rose up to resist the illegal occupation of their country by Israel & it's proxy the South Lebanese Army.

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:43 pm

Regarding Gaza:

A precis & extrapolation of some U.N. data, gathered from W.H.O. & other UN agencies on the ground in gaza, explaining the (obviously) difficult to understand concept of why targetting civilian infrastructure, such as power stations is a breach of the 4th geneva convention, collective punishment.
these are the words of & based on reports from U.N. agency personnel working in Gaza:
The 12 July air assault on a Gaza house, ostensibly a "targeted assassination" of a Hamas leader, did not kill the official target but did kill two other adults and seven children. The deliberate targeting and destruction of the main electrical generating plant, especially at the height of summer and at a moment in which the absolute siege of Gaza means there are virtually no fuel stocks available for local generators, guarantees humanitarian disaster. The deliberate destruction of the already-eroded water system means that already borderline-saline water is scarcer than ever. Tens of thousands of Gaza City residents live in high-rise apartments of ten floors or higher; without electricity, not only the elevators but even water pumps cannot function. The humanitarian situation is catastrophic.
According to the High Commissioner for Human Rights, "the use of force by Israel during its military operations into the Gaza Strip has resulted in an increasing number of deaths and other casualties amongst the Palestinian civilian population, and significant damage to civilian property and infrastructure." UNRWA, which cares for 980,000 Palestinian refugees, "believes that Gaza is on the brink of a public health disaster." The World Health Organization (WHO) states that "the public health system is facing an unprecedented crisis. WHO estimates that though hospitals and 50 per cent of Primary Health Care Centers have generators, the current stock of fuel will last for a maximum of two weeks. …According to WHO in the last week, there has been a 160 per cent increase in cases of diarrhea compared with the same period last year. Compounding these problems, WHO estimates that 23 per cent of the essential drug list will be out of stock within one month." The World Food Program (WFP) estimates that "in June 70 % of the Gaza population were already unable to cover their daily food needs without assistance. The escalation of hostilities has made food an increasingly critical issue. Wheat flour mills, food factories and bakeries, reliant on electricity, are being forced to reduce their production due to power shortages; furthermore the loss of capacity to preserve perishable food in the Gaza heat is resulting in high food losses in the home." And UNICEF states "children in Gaza are living in an environment of extraordinary violence, insecurity and fear. … The ongoing fighting is hurting children psychologically. Caregivers say children are showing signs of distress and exhaustion, including a 15%-20% increase in bedwetting, due to shelling and sonic booms. … UNICEF stressed that children are always most vulnerable to outbreaks of communicable disease brought on by lack of water and sanitation."
OCHA's mention of international humanitarian law refers to the Fourth Geneva Convention. Article 3 (1) (a) prohibits "violence to life and person" and "murder of all kinds." Calling murder "targeted assassination does not make it legal. Article 33 states that "No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited." In Article 36 the "taking of hostages is prohibited." That would include the Israeli arrests of about one-third of the elected Palestinian Legislative Assembly and about one-half of the Palestinian Authority's cabinet ministers, who are being held at least partly to serve as bargaining chips.
Examine also the contention that the Israeli 'centrist' administration is trying to creat a 'viable' 2 state system, yet 'After the "pull-out" Gaza remained besieged and surrounded, and Israel has remained in complete control of all aspects of Gazan life. Israel has continued to control the Gaza economy, withholding $50 million or so Palestinian monthly tax revenues, prohibiting Palestinian workers from entering Israel, and controlling the Israeli and Egyptian border crossings into and out of Gaza for all goods and people. Israel continues to forcibly limit the range of Gaza's fleet of fishermen. It still controls Gaza's airspace and coastal waters, and continues to prohibit construction of a seaport or rebuilding the airport. And Israel continues its air strikes and ground attacks on people and infrastructure throughout Gaza, and continues its nightly barrage of sonic sound-bombs across Gaza's population centers.'
Examine timelines:
As Gideon Levy wrote in the Israeli paper Ha'aretz, "the Palestinians started it" remains the assumption for Israelis, and for most Americans. "'They started' will be the routine response to anyone who tries to argue, for example, that a few hours before the first Qassam fell on the school in Ashkelon, causing no damage, Israel sowed destruction at the Islamic University in Gaza.

DeadlyKungFu
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Post by DeadlyKungFu » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:47 pm

Can I just ask a dumb question and request that someone lay out what the fuck happened in the last week? Bonus points for a short answer. This all escalated so goddamn fast my head's spinning. I have to admit, sometimes I tune the news out. Soldiers kidnapped, rockets fired, soldiers sent in, rockets fired, people evacuating, scary shit.

This shit is bananas, b-a-n-a-n-a-s.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:54 pm

diverdee wrote:Maybe there's something sinister about Lebanese vegetables I am not aware of?
sure, if you're hiding rockets in them. Grain Silos?? Hmm, that sound about the right size doesn't it?
diverdee wrote:Some Hizbollah rockets actually have been targetted at Israeli Military facilities & weapons storage ares, which are strategically with high Arab populations
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here? But, i would like to point out that 8 train workers died at a train station in Haifa from a rocket attack, all civilians.
diverdee wrote:this is teh same politically controlled Israeli 'intelligence' that gave us so much unreliable information concerning ostensible WMD's within Iraq - leading to the fruition of a long term Israeli strategic goal - namely the occupation of Iraq.
I was under the impression that it was the US military that fucked up, since it's the US that went to war. What country in their right mind would rely on 3rd party intelligence without verification? (Oh yeah, we're talking about the US, i forgot) Your statement is not substatiated, can not be verified, but not entirely without merit, if it's correct.

diverdee wrote:Hamas had already made many diplomatic moves & statemnets which were ignored & sidelined, the acceptance of the Prisoners statement (which had been pretty much accepted before until Abbas made a move intended to outfox Hamas) was just the culmination of those moves.
So, if i told you Bush was 'intending' to leave Iraq before the last suicide bombing occured, would you believe me? How about if North Korea 'intended' to stop it nuclear policy? Or, do you believe Iran's 'intent' to use nuclear technology only for peaceful purposes. Don't be so naive.
diverdee wrote:One has to also remember that the kidnapped Israeli soldiers were tank gunners at a time when Israel was dropping Hundreds of shells a day on Gaza & the death toll just within July already stood at around 20 -30 (I don't have the exact figures to hand) & that the day before the 'kidnapping' of the active military personnle the IDF had crossed into Gaza proper (palestinian territory) & kidnapped two palestinians who it accused (although I have seen no evidence)
As opposed to the evidence you 'normally' see, because you're privy to that, and you sources are concrete, right? Who are you kidding?
diverdee wrote:They will likely join the hundreds of other palestinians who have been kidnapped from palestinian territory & put under 'administrative detainment' - i.e. held in camps for long periods of timke with no formal charges made against them, with no access to lawyers etc. whilst they are routinely tortured, as attested to by Amnesty Internationsl, the red cross/crescent & otehr independent organizations within Palestine.
I believe that was Britain's policy as well, who you seem to reference so often as being higher morally. It's also the US's policy in Iraq. I'm not condoning any of this, but you can't blindly say that the palestinians or the israeli's have a higher morality? What is the guage that you're using to judge this by? Is it the death toll? Is it prior agreements? Where does it stop and where does it begin? Who are you to castigate an entire culture as being morally corrupt, and another as morally superior? But what social merits do we guage morallity? Ours or theirs?
Last edited by stinky on Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

djadonis206
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Post by djadonis206 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:54 pm

DeadlyKungFu wrote:Can I just ask a dumb question and request that someone lay out what the fuck happened in the last week? Bonus points for a short answer. This all escalated so goddamn fast my head's spinning. I have to admit, sometimes I tune the news out. Soldiers kidnapped, rockets fired, soldiers sent in, rockets fired, people evacuating, scary shit.

This shit is bananas, b-a-n-a-n-a-s.
More Middle East drama - blah blah blah
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stinky
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Post by stinky » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:02 pm

diverdee wrote:A precis & extrapolation of some U.N. data, gathered from W.H.O. & other UN agencies on the ground in gaza, explaining the (obviously) difficult to understand concept of why targetting civilian infrastructure, such as power stations is a breach of the 4th geneva convention, collective punishment.
these are the words of & based on reports from U.N. agency personnel working in Gaza:
So suicide attacks on public transportation busses in the busy streets of Jersalem or Tel Aviv are a justified act of a morally superior resistance?
diverdee wrote:withholding $50 million or so Palestinian monthly tax revenues
That is being withheld from a known terrorist organization, regardless of whether it was voted in to power. Would you have allowed the IRA to get money without prior agreement?
diverdee wrote:prohibiting Palestinian workers from entering Israel
I highly doubt that you'd potentially allow Islamic fundamnetalists into your office workspace, or home, for that matter. What basic human right do palestinians have to work in Israel proper? Please read off the UN article, or Convention article.
diverdee wrote:and controlling the Israeli and Egyptian border crossings into and out of Gaza for all goods and people
And how do you distinguish between what is or what isn't military cache without stemming the flow and doing random searches?
diverdee wrote:Israel continues to forcibly limit the range of Gaza's fleet of fishermen
Again, and how do you distinguish between what is or what isn't military cache without stemming the flow and doing random searches?

diverdee wrote:It still controls Gaza's airspace and coastal waters, and continues to prohibit construction of a seaport or rebuilding the airport.
Again, and how do you distinguish between what is or what isn't military cache without stemming the flow and doing random searches?

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