[POLITICAL] - LEBANON

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
stinky
Posts: 1182
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:06 am

Post by stinky » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:06 am

diverdee wrote:This is similar to the Bush administrations reductionist mantra of 'they hate our freedoms', because they are essentially'ignorant' & hate filled due to their essential Islamic nature, whilst taking no account of specific circumstances & grievances
By that very same token, you're justifying the rationality for hijacking, suicide bombings and the like. What i think you're overlooking, is simply this. If you really are fervently peace seeking... anyone who is truly peace seeking, will ONLY follow in the path of Ghandi, and look to that end as the salvation for this situation. There is no justification for the acts or propaganda on both sides.
diverdee wrote:That's just a perpetuation of racial & cultural stereotypes that are used as justifications for (in this case) Israeli actions.
So what aother stereoptypes are true?
Lecherous itialians?
Priggish British?
Wine drinking arrogant gauls (french)?
Argumentative & prone to violence Irish?
The loud, obnoxious & insensitive american?
The lazy & slothful carribean?
The inability of africans (especially southern Africans) to rule tehmselves.
The avaricious & arrogant elistist jew/Israeli?
Hmmmm.....
So racial & cultural stereotypes are ok when they provide justification for your intended actions?
Interesting - you seem to be proving a point here.
Your characterisation of the arabs thus, which you previously said was not you personal viewpoint & you now seem to be saying is your personal viewpoint (but only because it is ostensibly self evidently true) could be used as evidence of you conforming to your own racial or cultural stereotype.
I know arabs, I have had dealings with arabs, as well as members of many other cultures.
Your viewpoint is bigoted however you try & sell it.
It's practically 19th century.
I can understand your sentiment about that, and knew you would bring that up, but i already explained that in a previous post in this thread. Please, go back through an read. Plus, you're making things out to be black and white and they're not.

It begs the question, where do you draw the line between cultural trait and cultural stereotype? Is it it's capacity as a negative trait that turns it into a stereotype, and something that should not be discussed rationally?

I've read Said, and i own The Power of Nightmares. But, throughout all my reading of Chompsky, Said, Manbiot, and everyone else, i still don't understand how they can rationalize this type of behavior. Yes, there are always underlying reasons why people do the things they do. It's not something that's bowls you over when you hear it. 1+1=2. That's great. I'm glad that you went to university to understand that. But, there's no way they can condone this violent behavior. And it permeates arab society. It's not a bigotted to thing to say. It's part of their cultures. And must be understood. Additionally, it has permeatted Israeli society as well, which the result of being a hyper military state. It's not that hard to figure out. 1+1=2.

Here's where it gets more complicated. You can't claim the moral high ground. Sorry, palestinians can't do that. They haven't marched in peacefull protest without violence against the aggressor ever within their struggle. Once they do that, then the moral highground can be rightfully claimed. Otherwise, it's just tit for tat, and the situation will never be resolved.

diverdee
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:11 am
Location: Bradford - The Armpit of Britain

Post by diverdee » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:08 am

Terrorism?
On Sunday, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert admitted that he intended to commit war crimes in Gaza, telling his cabinet that he wanted "no one to be able to sleep tonight in Gaza". Olmert thus officially acknowledged Israel's policy of collectively punishing 1.4 million Palestinians, a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
On July 2 Ehud Olmert told his cabinet that, "I want nobody to sleep at night in Gaza. I want them to know what it's like" in Israel's communities near Gaza that have been hit by Palestinian Qassam rockets. His statement referred directly to Israel's practices of waking Palestinians in the middle of the night by repeatedly flying jets overhead that create sonic booms, and of shelling Gaza at night. Additionally, Israel keeps Gazans awake at night with worry about poverty, siege, imminent attack, and lack of electricity, water, fuel and food.
On July 3, the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem specifically criticized Olmert's statement, saying that, "The use of sonic booms flagrantly breaches a number of provisions of international humanitarian law. The most significant provision is the prohibition on collective punishment. Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention… categorically states that "Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited." In addition to criticizing sonic booms, Human Rights Watch noted on June 29 that "The laws of war prohibit attacks on "objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population." Israel's attack on Gaza's only power plant is in violation of its obligation to safeguard such objects from attack."
176 Palestinians killed in 2006, many of them civilians and children, compared to 16 Israelis killed; 8300 Israeli shells launched into Gaza this year compared with 840 Palestinian rockets launched towards Israel; on-going Israeli land seizure; or Israel's tightening siege of Gaza. Only The New York Times mentioned that Hamas was now breaking a unilateral 16 month truce.
Palestinians killed and captured Israeli soldiers implementing a siege of Gaza. None noted the irony that Palestinians were holding a single Israeli soldier prisoner, while Israel is holding 9,000 Palestinian prisoners, many civilians held without due process, and some enduring torture.

stinky
Posts: 1182
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:06 am

Post by stinky » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:13 am

diverdee wrote:loose definition?
Is State terrorism included in your tighter definition.
Would you say that the constant sonic boom attacks of Israeli airforce jets over Gaza would meet the definition of terrorism (as ithey are meant to terrorise the poulation) the WHO have done some research into the psychological impact, especially on children.
Indiscriminate bombing of civilians?
No, by loose definition, i meant the way it's used here in the US as blanket to ring everyone on their radar (drug dealers, et al). Of course I don't condone state sponsored terrorism.

How about this, what about the people in Haifa, Safed, etc, in the North that aren't able to sleep at night either because there are rockets being lobbed at night? You're looking at one side, in all of your arguments. You're not taking into account the same situations for the Israeli people.

diverdee
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:11 am
Location: Bradford - The Armpit of Britain

Post by diverdee » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:38 am

err_fatale wrote:Then how do we fault the Palestinians and other peoples of the region surrounding Israel for acting out vengefully against Israel??????
M. Bréqs wrote:Look back a bit, I discuss the history, refuting your claim that "they" stole the land.
Some quotes from famous Israelis in answer to the two posts above:
Let us not today fling accusation at the murderers. What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit -in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.
- Moshe Dayan (1966)
Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?
-david Ben Gurion (1956)
We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.
-David Ben Gurion (1948)
Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.
- david Ben Gurion (1978)
Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.
- David Ben Gurion (1938)
We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!
-Yitzhak Rabin (1979)
The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.
-Menachem Begin
The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism.
-Yitzhak Shamir (1997)
Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.
-Benyamin Netanyahu (1989)
If I were a young Palestinian, it is possible I would join a terrorist organization.
-Ehud Barak (1988)
It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
ariel Sharon (1998)
Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements
-Ariel Sharon (1998)

diverdee
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:11 am
Location: Bradford - The Armpit of Britain

Post by diverdee » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:41 am

stinky wrote:It begs the question, where do you draw the line between cultural trait and cultural stereotype? Is it it's capacity as a negative trait that turns it into a stereotype, and something that should not be discussed rationally?
So, what is the Israeli/jewish 'cultural trait, bearing in miond statements such as this by Ariel Sharon?
Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.

stinky
Posts: 1182
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:06 am

Post by stinky » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:42 am

sorry, dude.. i already mentioned Ben Gurion and Dayan in my previous posts.. i hadn't quoted them, but i stated how they postulated thus. You're preaching to the choir. You should go back and read those previous posts. You're not saying anything that i haven't mentioned. But, you still haven't answered my question.

acehole
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:20 am

Post by acehole » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:53 am

diverdee wrote:
err_fatale wrote:Then how do we fault the Palestinians and other peoples of the region surrounding Israel for acting out vengefully against Israel??????
M. Bréqs wrote:Look back a bit, I discuss the history, refuting your claim that "they" stole the land.
Some quotes from famous Israelis in answer to the two posts above:
Let us not today fling accusation at the murderers. What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit -in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.
- Moshe Dayan (1966)
Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?
-david Ben Gurion (1956)
We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.
-David Ben Gurion (1948)
Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.
- david Ben Gurion (1978)
Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.
- David Ben Gurion (1938)
We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!
-Yitzhak Rabin (1979)
The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.
-Menachem Begin
The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism.
-Yitzhak Shamir (1997)
Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.
-Benyamin Netanyahu (1989)
If I were a young Palestinian, it is possible I would join a terrorist organization.
-Ehud Barak (1988)
It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
ariel Sharon (1998)
Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements
-Ariel Sharon (1998)
Really does reveal their true colours doesnt it.

diverdee
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:11 am
Location: Bradford - The Armpit of Britain

Post by diverdee » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:55 am

stinky wrote:
diverdee wrote:This is similar to the Bush administrations reductionist mantra of 'they hate our freedoms', because they are essentially'ignorant' & hate filled due to their essential Islamic nature, whilst taking no account of specific circumstances & grievances
By that very same token, you're justifying the rationality for hijacking, suicide bombings and the like.
No justification of that rationality, did I state that even in subtext.
I merely pointed out the fallacy in attempting to blame actions such as that on a cultural stereotype, such as 'Islamic Rage' rather than focusing on the real causes & triggers for this extreme behaviour.
Without understanding of root causes a map for resolving conflicts & minimising this kind of violent behaviour is impossible.
Arguing that it is an unchangeable characteristic, reified - is just an argument used to justify a never ending 'war on terror' etc. - with all the attendant problems.
It's like a kid saying 'I hate him he stinks', when what is needed is for the recipient of the slur to take a bath (really simpleitic metaphoe, but i'm tired - it gets across the message of looking for root causes of a problem).
Here's where it gets more complicated. You can't claim the moral high ground. Sorry, palestinians can't do that. They haven't marched in peacefull protest without violence against the aggressor ever within their struggle. Once they do that, then the moral highground can be rightfully claimed. Otherwise, it's just tit for tat, and the situation will never be resolved.
I examine the situation with an examination of power balance.
Israel is ascendant, they have a preponderance of power, hugely (with U.S. backing also).
The palestinians have none - they are an occupied people.
Those with the power (economic, military, political etc.) are the ones who are in the position to create a lasting change - for peace.
Time & time again that opportunity has not been taken.
Standard Israeli bargaining policy (a matter of record, noted by their own diplomats & bragged about & reported In Israeli papers) - Ask for way more than the other side is willing to or can give & then when they refuse - blame them for not wanting to negotiate.
In other words wall them in diplomatically, just as tehy are now being physically.
An oversimplification to be fair, given Fatahs's later willingness to sell out the palestinians in exchange for a chance to line their own nepotistic & corrupt pockets.

M. Bréqs
Posts: 1479
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:02 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by M. Bréqs » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:05 am

diverdee wrote:
Some quotes from famous Israelis in answer to the two posts above:
So, I guess if you watch history for 68 years, you can scrape together enough quotes from ANY group or side where people lose their tempers.

If you want to get into a fucking quote war, believe me buddy, we could shut down this forum's servers with sick, Anti-Zionist and genocidal statements from Hamas, Hizbollah, Fatah, Iran, the Saudis, the Muslim Brotherhood, etc etc.

The fact that some Israeli leaders said stupid shit at points in history does not change the fact that Israel has the right to exist as decided by the UN General Assembly.

The sooner that the Arab world can come to grips with a two state solution, the sooner there can be peace.
Last edited by M. Bréqs on Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

stinky
Posts: 1182
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:06 am

Post by stinky » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:07 am

diverdee wrote:I examine the situation with an examination of power balance.
Israel is ascendant, they have a preponderance of power, hugely (with U.S. backing also).
The palestinians have none - they are an occupied people.
Those with the power (economic, military, political etc.) are the ones who are in the position to create a lasting change - for peace.
Time & time again that opportunity has not been taken.
Standard Israeli bargaining policy (a matter of record, noted by their own diplomats & bragged about & reported In Israeli papers) - Ask for way more than the other side is willing to or can give & then when they refuse - blame them for not wanting to negotiate.
In other words wall them in diplomatically, just as tehy are now being physically.
An oversimplification to be fair, given Fatahs's later willingness to sell out the palestinians in exchange for a chance to line their own nepotistic & corrupt pockets.
Huh.. i'm really tired of stating the same things over again, that I posted in this thread previously, but that's not how israel sees it, and not everyone sees it as Israel being the mighty one. In israel, they don't see it as just the palestinians, but the arab nation as a whole. In israel they see as "they want to push us into the sea". I think that's as justified a statement as the Palestinians are the oppressed. They are both true statements. Even now, you can see, it's not Israel vs the Palestinians, but Israel vs the Palestinians, and Syria, and Hezbollah, and Iran. Now, when you look at it that way, the balance of power changes and military backing can by the US can be justified. Again, i'm not condoning this, but pointing to how it's seen in Israel, and to a greater extent in the US.

Personally, i feel that Israel is aggressive in seeking an end to the violence. Now, i'm being very careful with that statement, because i'm not justifying israel's actions. I'm making a statement about the way the make their decisions.

stinky
Posts: 1182
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:06 am

Post by stinky » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:10 am

M. Bréqs wrote:The fact that Israel has the right to exist as decided by the UN General Assembly.

The sooner that the Arab world can come to grips with a two state solution, the sooner there can be peace.
This is probably the most important point made on this thread, and one that has alluded every left-wing advocate i've ever read. ISRAEL is not going anywhere. It must be accepted, and that has never happened.

M. Bréqs
Posts: 1479
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:02 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by M. Bréqs » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:49 am

I decided to go and add some balance to your little quotes, diverdee; I got bored of finding them all, I don't have all night. Like I said, there's no shortage.

My point is that if you look hard enough, you can find evil shit on all sides. All the especially irrational and racist crap is in red... Though idiot racists like Computo would probably read this shit and nod his head in agreement.
H.R.H King Abdul Aziz Ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia, to Col H.R.P. Dickson British Foreign Office file 371/20822 E7201/22/31 Oct 28, 1937 Source - Interview of Saud with Dickson, 1937 wrote: 'Today we and our subjects are deeply troubled over this Palestine question, and the cause of our disquiet and anxiety is the strange attitude of your British Government, and the still more strange hypnotic influence which the Jews, a race accursed by God according to His Holy Book, and destined to final destruction and eternal damnation hereafter, appear to wield over them and the English people generally.

'God's Holy Book (the Qur'an) contains God's own word and divine ordinance, and we commend to His Majesty's government to read and carefully peruse that portion which deals with the Jews and especially what is to be their fate in the end. For God's words are unalterable and must be.

...

'Our hatred for the Jews dates from God's condemnation of them for their persecution and rejection of Isa (Jesus Christ), and their subsequent rejection later of His chosen Prophet.

Anis Mansour, Al-Akhbar, 1973 wrote: "People all over the world have come to realize that Hitler was right, since Jews . . . are bloodsuckers . . . interested in destroying the whole world which has . . . expelled them and despised them for centuries ... and burnt them in Hitler's crematoria ... one million ... six millions. Would that he had finished it!"
Dr. Lutfi Abd Al-Azim, AI-Ahram Iktisadi, September 27, 1982 wrote: "The first thing that we have to make clear is that no distinction must be made between the Jew and the Israeli....The Jew is a Jew, through the millennia....in spurning all moral values, devouring the living and drinking his blood for the sake of a few coins. The Jew, the Merchant of Venice, does not differ from the killer of Deir Yassin or the killer of the camps. They are equal examples of human degradation. Let us therefore put aside such distinctions and talk about Jews."


[quote="Yasser Arafat, then head of the PLO and PA President - Private speech entitled "The Impending Total Collapse of Israel", Stockholm, Sweden, January 30, 1996"]
"We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews."
[/quote]



Ret. Lebanese General Hisham Jaber, July 11, 2005 Hizbullah's Al-Manar TV wrote: "Regardless of the logic of conspiracy, I would like to say something. We read history, and we know that since The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Zionism has forged the New Testament – and by now, 60 million in the U.S. alone have left Christianity to become believers in the Torah.

"Global Zionism has tried to forge the Holy Koran, and has printed many copies of this forgery. It has been discovered that many extremist movements were backed by [global Zionism]."
Dr. 'Ali 'Aqleh 'Ursan, Chairman of the Arab Writers Association in Syria, Al-Usbu' Al-Adabi (Syria), February 5, 2000 wrote: "The covetous, racist, and hated Jew Shylock, who cut the [pound of] flesh from Antonio's chest with the knife of hatred, invades you with his money, his modern airplanes, his missiles, and his nuclear bombs".


Muhammad Kheir Al-Wadi, Editor of the Syrian Gov't Publication, Tishreen, January 31, 2002 wrote: "Zionism hides the dark chapters of its black history. It invents stories regarding the Nazi Holocaust in which the Jews suffered and inflates them to astronomic proportions..."
Dr. Ibrahim 'Alloush Al-Jazeera TV on August 23, 2005 wrote: "The Holocaust is exploited to justify the Zionist policies and to justify the enemy state's right to exist. There is evidence, and scientific research, that prove the Holocaust is a lie. "

Sheikh Ibrahim Mudayris, Friday Sermon, PA TV, May 13, 2005 wrote: The day will come and we shall rule America The day will come and we shall rule Britain, we shall rule the entire world, except the Jews. The Jews will not live under our rule agreeably permanently, since they have been treacherous in nature throughout history. A day will come when all shall rest from the Jews, even the tree and the stone, which have suffered from them. Listen to your Beloved [Muhammad], who tells you about the most dire end of the Jews. The tree and the stone want the Muslim to bring every Jew to his end. You all know the Hadith."
UAE Professor Mustafa Muslim, Al-Majd TV Saudi Arabia June 19, 2005 wrote: ...[The Israelites] have spread all over the world. Now Allah gathers them in this land. He brings them in groups from all countries of the world, in order to fulfill Allah's universal law: Judgment Day will come when Muslims fight the Jews, and the stone and the tree say: Oh, Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there's a Jew behind me, come and kill him. If the Jews were scattered throughout the world, how could we find them in order to fight them? The war between us and the Jews is a religious war. This is not a war over a path, a land or anything like that. The part of the Koran that was given at Mecca, before the Muslim even met the Jews, each chapter reveals who the Jews really are, their perversity and the danger they present. Our war with them is a religious war, and we must arm the nation with the weapon of faith.
Abdul Aziz Shaheen- PA Minister Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, January 4, 1998 wrote: "The Oslo accord was a preface for the Palestinian Authority, and the Palestinian Authority will be a preface for the Palestinian state, which in turn will be a preface for the liberation of the entire Palestinian land.
...What a bunch of assholes.

acehole
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:20 am

Post by acehole » Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:06 am

M. Bréqs wrote:
diverdee wrote: The sooner that the Arab world can come to grips with a two state solution, the sooner there can be peace.
Hamas was days away from recognising Isreal if they were to retreat to LEGAL UN borders. Sounds reasonable to me?

Hows this for a solution to peace. Have Isreal recognise the geneva convention. Have Isreal abide by UN law. The very same laws that brang peace and protection to their people.

Hezbollah carried out a military attack against a military body. Isreal responds by carrying a military attack massacring civilians. They drop leaflets and tell residents to flee, and then bomb them when they do so. Isreal continues to massacre civilians on a war that should fronted against militants. This breaks several articles of the Geneva convention which are designed to prevent states from persecuting civillians who do not have direct military envolvement. Israel must be brought to account for its behaviour like rogue state.

For 60 years they have campaigned "No More".
Its about time the world looks them in dead straight in the eye and say "No more"

Today, we are all Lebanese. Make no mistake, the crimes commited against them are crimes against humanity.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11124
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:04 am

stinky wrote:I'm not biased in the least bit. I what is going on. But, the fact remains that in Israel, there's a saying, "Arabs only understand the sword." They can only be met with strength, or they will take advantage you. This is the mentality of Israelis, and many people in Europe think that Israel retalition for attacks is disproportionate. Well, if it was any less, things would be alot worse. In arab society, people do take advantage of weakness. That's the nature of their society. You, computo, can't fathom what living like that is like. So, you're armchair referee play is weak. Instead of adding to the hostilities, add something positive.
Machinesworking wrote: That has to be one of the most unintentionally funny posts. Sorry stinky, but you just lost a bit of credibility with me....
stinky wrote:I could give a shit? I never said anything hypocritical. I pointed to the Israeli mindset:

"But, the fact remains that in Israel, there's a saying, "Arabs only understand the sword." "

Which must be understood, because that's how it relates to the Arab mindset.
Machinesworking wrote:what it's like to live near arabs you portray as bloodthirsty.
stinky wrote:That's a fallacy!! Please, quote where i stated that in any of my posts!!!
diverdee wrote:That seems to indicate that you agree with the negative viewpoint & are arguing that a the disproportionate response is justified - as the fundamental, existential nature of arabs leves them unable to respond to peaceful overtures (which this viewpoint claims tehy would perceive as weakness) so Israel has to respond overwhelmingly & disproportionately - not because Israel wants to, but because it is the only language the arab is gentically or culturally predisposed to understand.
stinky wrote:Just because it's a negative viewpoint, doesn't necessarily mean it's completely wrong. You jumped into a thread late in the game, and have taken alot of what i said out of context. Arab society is like that. It may be negative, but it's not wrong. It's a cultural thing. Disregarding that in these types of conversation are similar to saying that in Japanese culture dominance of male over female is not conducive to discussing their cultural traits. It may be negative but it's true.

stinky wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: As far as I know about France, a French citizen has all the rights regardless of race or religion.
Well, there you go, picking and choosing who to be biased towards. As far as i'm aware, there were race riots in France at the end of all last year. Did you have your head in sand? And, who was doing the majority of the rioting? The arab population, that feels disenfranchised within that society, no less. Sounds like you need to do some more research before making unfound statements.
Well from what I understand the main thing that started it was French policy of not allowing religious icons or clothing in public schools. there might have been more to it, and I'm sure most of the people roiting weren't wealthy, but to say it was because the French are not treating them right is probably a bad call.
But then again, I'm talking to somebody who uses cultural stereotypes to make blanket statements about arabs, but has been arguing any point made that makes the Israelis look bad, as being anti Israel.
You can't have it both ways IMO. You can't rationally argue against cultural stereotyping when it comes to jews, yet use blanket statements to describe the Palestinians.

4rest
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:21 am
Location: earth

Post by 4rest » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:21 am

ok...
i don't ever get involved in this type of shit online
BUT i feel like i need to voice some things.

first
i am a 34 year old male.
i live in the usa.
i started playing music at 4
i left home at 16 to hang in recording studios.
i moved to chicago at 17,traveled,recorded,made very good friends from all walks of life.

i have had many jew/christian/muslim/ect. friends either as roomates, bandmates or as clients.

we all have over the years talked in person.... face to face about the "state of affairs".....unlike the interweb....where nobody is going to punch you out if they don't like what you say =)

with that i have to say that judaism IS NOT A RACE nor is any other form of religion.....period!!!!

NO ONE CAN CHANGE THEIR SKIN COLOR BUT WE CAN ALL CHANGE FAITH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but if it is i will make sure and tell all the "converts" that they are not a jew/christian/whatever and that they are fooling themselves in thinking otherwise.

all this shit is one "tribe" fucking with another "tribe" which happens everyday!

i think what is going on is soooooooooooo wrong on every level it is retarded but hey who i am i???iamiam!!

maybe it's time to let the women run the world?

this is is a question i have often posed to my jewish friends (when they start to bitch about the 2000 plus years of opression while drinking beer in america....you know the land that once belonged to another "tribe")

i ask "why do you as a jew think so many different "tribes" have historically beat you down?"

i ask this because i can't think of a reason why but damn it there has to be some reason.....at least one would think.....or maybe that religion just has bad luck.... i don't know.

well i am sure this post will piss some people off but that is ok as there is ALWAYS someone who doesn't like what you have to say.

this post DOES NOT reflect the opinions of my employer oseao.com AT ALL and are my own statements.

AND with that .....

we had a GREAT ableton live users group tonight (which people from all walks of life showed up) at the station and we should have the video up from tonight very soon =)

one last thing i would like to thank abraham for making this world a much better place ={

peace on earth
forrest

Post Reply