is live live?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Guest

Post by Guest » Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:41 am

Credo wrote:wow these are the longest posts I ever have seen on this forum!
I didnt read them though... :)

C

these are the sort of discussions we should have more of on these forums - philosophical on the things that makes us do whats we do

Guest

Post by Guest » Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:45 am

noisetonepause wrote:Live is my main music making toy, along with my guitartoys, keyboardtoys, samplertoy, voicetoy and drumboxtoy... I'm just playing music!

:D:D:D:D

-Paws

("Fuck dance, let's art!" --Coldcut)
I'd rather watch someone play than work...what fun would that be...give us more toys!
:lol:

Splashmash

Post by Splashmash » Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:04 am

To the person who made a distinction between those who wholly create their music and those who use "found sounds":

Did these "wholly creating" musicians build their own instruments? I doubt it. These are the tools with which they create their music.

Similarly, drum samples etc are tools with which producers create music. It's just a different frame of reference.


Also, surely if producers make "music", they must be "musicians". I haven't checked the definition but i assume the meaning of musician is something like: someone who makes music.


As a final question: is a sine/square/saw wave with which you may create a synth patch a "found sound" or are people who create their own waveforms but don't use traditional instruments allowed to be called "musicians"?

Guest

Post by Guest » Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:44 am

Splashmash wrote:To the person who made a distinction between those who wholly create their music and those who use "found sounds":

Did these "wholly creating" musicians build their own instruments? I doubt it. These are the tools with which they create their music.

Similarly, drum samples etc are tools with which producers create music. It's just a different frame of reference.


Also, surely if producers make "music", they must be "musicians". I haven't checked the definition but i assume the meaning of musician is something like: someone who makes music.


As a final question: is a sine/square/saw wave with which you may create a synth patch a "found sound" or are people who create their own waveforms but don't use traditional instruments allowed to be called "musicians"?


Agreed. This is exactly what my rant on the previous page about what makes an authentic musician was all about - I'm sick of this elitist rubbish, I'm personally glad software has made high quality audio accessible to the masses - I've been playing guitar since i was 11, so I could call myself a musician in the sense these people are talking about but i think it's the biggest load of shit.

I've heard better tunes coming out of self taught people than out of some of the most 'accomplished' musicians because the latter often take it for granted so their heart's not in it - at the end of the day music is about expression, and how you get there is irrelevant.

These people who say using loops and samples isn't really music either haven't really used any of the software, or they just haven't thought it through. THey obviously don't know what they're on about so i guess we should take no notice.

ryansupak

Post by ryansupak » Thu Aug 21, 2003 8:38 pm

one more thought:

i think sometimes people assume that because it's a piece of software and not a guitar or a turntable, that it doesn't require physical practice to become skilled on. most people here know that's not the case.

i guess my point is "keep practicing and don't worry about naysayers, it will all come out in the wash".

rs

Guest

Post by Guest » Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:00 am

What of members of an orchestra? Are they musicians? performers? Or just "fuzzy" playback devices? I've had several friends that were classically trained and members of orchestras, quartets, etc yet never wrote a single bit of music and didn't care to create. It's perhaps like acting versus writing?

Anyway, I really don't know how I would define "musician", and don't really care to. I'm just happy so many more people have such great tools at their disposal and can have a chance to explore and realize some of their own visions.

-scotty

Guest

Post by Guest » Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:04 am

Anonymous wrote: I personally think dancing in a room full of people who are in love with the music and don't give a fuck what the dj is doing is one of the best experiences available to humanity, and it's a shame people are still worried about what the dj/PA artist does while they play
I think watching musicians interacting with each other on instruments (or computers) live and feeding off the energy of an audience is the most exciting musical experience for me (on either side of the stage). Really great live bands that don't play the same songs every night, and don't play songs from (or anything like) the album, and aren't afraid to improvise, go with the flow, and feel the enegry in the room (bands like Sound Tribe Sector 9, or The New Deal) can interact with the audience/dancefloor in a way that one or a pair of djs with a less fluid medium can't come close to--give either of those bands a fair listen to their live material and you might see what i mean. Besides the fact that it is all live (except for a few vocal samples) and that it is visually exciting and sights corresponding to the sounds--the ability of a handful or great intrumentalists that have open ears, nimble hands, and lots of experience playing with and reacting to each other musically--is, imho, the ultimate musical experience--no one, not even the band, noes where it will go and what will happen, and most songs are a great deal different from night to night. When i see djs, i just don't feel as much of the that human element, that interaction of musicians in the group with both each other and all of the people in the room, that feeling of beeing on the edge. I think back to the origins of music, the beating on a drum, that tribal intreraction of the dancer and those pounding out ryhthms--thats what its all about to me, and i guess i haven't seen a guy with a few tuntables or a computer interact with the dance floor in quite the same way, or with as fluid of dynamics as a group with live instruments, but that's just what I've seen.

Guest

Post by Guest » Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:24 am

Sounds sweet and utopian indeed, just spare me the smelly trance-hippie-wannabes and their incessant rhythm-free drum and didjeridoo fashion statements

Peace man and woman

Morning Glory

Guest

Post by Guest » Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:27 am

Splashmash wrote:To the person who made a distinction between those who wholly create their music and those who use "found sounds":

Did these "wholly creating" musicians build their own instruments? I doubt it. These are the tools with which they create their music.

Similarly, drum samples etc are tools with which producers create music. It's just a different frame of reference.


Also, surely if producers make "music", they must be "musicians". I haven't checked the definition but i assume the meaning of musician is something like: someone who makes music.


As a final question: is a sine/square/saw wave with which you may create a synth patch a "found sound" or are people who create their own waveforms but don't use traditional instruments allowed to be called "musicians"?
if you can't tell that there's a world of difference between learning to play the guitar or drums and using a sample made by someone else who has learned to play that instrument, i feel sorry for you. To learn an instument, you are at first just getting your hands to go where you want. Then (hopefully) learning chords, rhythm, harmony, melody, theory and being able to apply those in a variety of settings and styles, in real time, in front of audiences. you learn how to improvise and play with others, to create from the knowledge base you have aquired over the years, yes years (and years). Writing your own music and making your own guitar/keyboard/drum/etc. parts yourself, with your own two hands is WAY different that taking a loop or beat or song that SOMEONE ELSE played on an instrument (or produced on a computer)--SOMEONE ELSE who learned how to play that instrument, someone else who's training and mind created that sound that YOU are using when you sample. Who cares who makes the instrument or computer--those are the tools, the sounds are the creations, the art. when someone creates music from these instruments they are CREATING music and sounds. When someone uses this material (remember, SOMEBODY made that loop/beat/guitar part/sample) they are SAMPLING, no matter what effects, slicing and dicing, or tempo/pitch shifting are applied, don't forget that at one point, another human created those sounds and those patterns from their head, from their sum of experiences, not yours. There is a difference between creating something yourself, and sampling something someone else created, plain and simple.

Guest

Post by Guest » Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:30 am

Anonymous wrote:... just spare me the smelly trance-hippie-wannabes and their incessant rhythm-free drum and didjeridoo fashion statements

Peace man and woman

Morning Glory
what does that mean--who is rhythm free? fashion statements?? What in the heck are you talking about?

noisetonepause
Posts: 4935
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 3:38 pm
Location: Second row from the expensive puddle, under ten others

Post by noisetonepause » Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:53 am

Anonymous wrote:if you can't tell that there's a world of difference between learning to play the guitar or drums and using a sample made by someone else who has learned to play that instrument, i feel sorry for you. To learn an instument, you are at first just getting your hands to go where you want. Then (hopefully) learning chords, rhythm, harmony, melody, theory and being able to apply those in a variety of settings and styles, in real time, in front of audiences. you learn how to improvise and play with others, to create from the knowledge base you have aquired over the years, yes years (and years). Writing your own music and making your own guitar/keyboard/drum/etc. parts yourself, with your own two hands is WAY different that taking a loop or beat or song that SOMEONE ELSE played on an instrument (or produced on a computer)--SOMEONE ELSE who learned how to play that instrument, someone else who's training and mind created that sound that YOU are using when you sample. Who cares who makes the instrument or computer--those are the tools, the sounds are the creations, the art. when someone creates music from these instruments they are CREATING music and sounds. When someone uses this material (remember, SOMEBODY made that loop/beat/guitar part/sample) they are SAMPLING, no matter what effects, slicing and dicing, or tempo/pitch shifting are applied, don't forget that at one point, another human created those sounds and those patterns from their head, from their sum of experiences, not yours. There is a difference between creating something yourself, and sampling something someone else created, plain and simple.
Blah fucking blah. So a producer is a musician if he bangs the snare drum himself once and uses that as a sample? What if there's an engineer involved to push 'record' on the sampler's front panel? Does that make the producer a sub-musician? Or not a musician at all? Cos in that situation, you know, the producer would not have recorded it himself, and hence it would be tainted with other people's bad energy (and lice, most likely)... What if it was physically impossible for him to access the sampler's front panel while he was at the drum kit (to play ONE snare drum hit that he could then sequence), say, if it was in another room? Is that producer a musician or is he not?

Or is what you're actually trying to say that you don't think a sampler is an instrument that requires skill to use? Let me 'splain it to you, mate, you do not simply go out and get a sampler and then churn out eighty funky house tracks a minute - that's just not how it works. Learning what works together and knowing which parts of a dusty dub plate would make a spanking floor filler requires a lot of skill and talent, as does putting them together.

Instead of keeping that nose in the sky, I think really do think you should go organise some sounds...

EneA1

LiveISalright

Post by EneA1 » Fri Aug 22, 2003 6:34 am

8)

Right you are!!

That in fact is the biggest mistake "musicians" make, thinking you have to just push a button to create "computer" music.

It really takes a lot, and I mean REALLY a lot, of effort to become even close to what e.g. a syntheziser is all about BEFORE you can even think of creating unique sounds out of it!!

Mozart and Beethoven only had a poor sounding forte-piano to play their fantastic music on. They would have gone berserk when they could have the great instruments of today!!

I tell you that I spent more time in learning and exploring programs then I spent on making music. Also to keep up with the ever on going developments in this area consumes a lot of time and effort.

It's just like a "real" instrument, only when you have complete control of it you can (begin) to think about making real music on it.

Just except that virtual instruments are the instrument of today and all that matters is the final result at the end of the day. When you put a CD into your player it does'nt matter how it is done, just listen or dance and enjoy it.

Credo
Posts: 247
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:19 pm
Location: Sweden

Post by Credo » Fri Aug 22, 2003 7:00 am

Anonymous wrote:
Credo wrote:wow these are the longest posts I ever have seen on this forum!
I didnt read them though... :)

C

these are the sort of discussions we should have more of on these forums - philosophical on the things that makes us do whats we do
I agree with that, mr Guest, but if you release your novells as a post in a forum there is a risk not so many will read them. Especially if you are on 56k and pay per minute, like me.

I like these discutions. The origin of this one I think is a little sad. After m-laboratories enlightening comments:
His entire "Tuning Spork" crew made a living out of shitting on other people's music and musical ideas, all the while glorifying their own.
...I understand a lot more about what this is about. I would not get into discution with this guy. Theres no point. Its not about arguments or creative ideas. Its about attitude and self esteam. (Entirely built on what m-lab said. Off course I dont know this guy. He's maybe a relly good guy. Im talking principle here! Hear me.)

Live is live.

C

Splashmash

Post by Splashmash » Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:35 am

Anonymous wrote:if you can't tell that there's a world of difference between learning to play the guitar or drums and using a sample made by someone else who has learned to play that instrument, i feel sorry for you. To learn an instument, you are at first just getting your hands to go where you want. Then (hopefully)............ etc etc etc

Ahem....... thanks for that. I do actually have the experience of playing the piano, violin and trombone so I resent that comment somewhat. Granted, learning a "traditional" instrument isn't easy and requires much practise, I know that. However, creating music with samples/synths etc also needs much skill and practice to make them "work". Anyone can knock out a simple track in Reason/Rebirth whatever, granted, but to create something that sounds polished, and will work on the dancefloor/in the living room/or wherever needs a hell of a lot of experience.

I have experience in both fields and genuinely beleive that both require a similar amount of skill.

I therefore think my comment about tools etc still holds. Look forwards not backwards. Being stuffy and resisting change never helps anyone.


Anyhow........ it's not how "difficult" something is that counts. It'd be damn hard to do a 60 minute fart symphony live on stage but it wouldn't be that great to listen to!!

sixela

A musical instrument is an instrument that makes music.

Post by sixela » Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:00 pm

Splashmash wrote: Anyhow........ it's not how "difficult" something is that counts. It'd be damn hard to do a 60 minute fart symphony live on stage but it wouldn't be that great to listen to!!
---that is the quote of the year and should be immortalised -Hilarious!!!

sum's up the idiotic, backward attitude these people have.

I find it absolutely amazing that 'musicians' still keep coming out with these 'sampling etc is a whole world away from 'real' instruments' type comments - it's so simple and ill thought out - it's like saying 'I don't think going out in a car makes you a real traveller, you should use a horse and cart'

do you think when the first piano was invented people stood around saying 'it's not real music'??

A musical instrument is an instrument that makes music. Full stop.

Saying that all these new tools are not real music is like not having any faith that people are still inventive - all the musical instruments must have been invented a long time ago and no more new ones are possible.

Live has only fairly recently been released and it's programs like this that make it really possible for musicians to jam with laptops - I'm sure the guitar or saxophone went through a number of incarnations before the one we know today.

Get your thinking out of the box all you conservatives who don't get it.

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