[OT] Any vegans here?

[Machinesworking]

and you guys that are arguing and name-calling
shut up and stop wasting bandwidth

for fuck sake it's like kindergarten here...

Yeah, but it's not surprising is it? Food, religion, politics and sex, (and apparently choice of computer as well!), are absolutely the most emotionally charged topics you can engage in.
Consider this, why is it that any meat eaters who have never, and will never be interested in becoming vegan or vegetarian would comment at all in this thread?
Why would a person deciding to try a vegetarian diet be a threat? It's about family IMO, food is directly tied to mom and dad etc. when people say that they are adapting a diet that is morally or physically superior in their opinions to the diet that the individual was fed by their parents, then that person jumps to an emotional and aggressive state immediately. It's as if you told them their parents were abusing them.

This works for the vegan / vegetarian as well. A realization that the diet they were fed in their youth was not that great etc. makes them feel like spreading the word etc.

I'm not going to comment on the posts criticizing the vegan/vegetarian diet one by one. let's just say that I think every adult alive knows that there is a huge leap in logic to say that farming, because it can't possibly be done on the scale that it is now without harming the animals that habitat the harvest fields, is proof that vegetarians are hypocrites etc. A lessor amount of damage in scale, and impact on the environment, is about all any of us can ask for.
It's entirely possible to eat a healthy meat based diet, and possible to eat a unhealthy vegan diet, but the facts remain that there are significantly higher levels of obesity and poor heath in the meat eating camp. Most vegans are into health food, it's simply easier to remain healthy if the entirety of your diet is organic.
Meat slows down the digestive process, period. This results in people who experience an energy lull after eating. If they work hard, the energy comes back in an hour or two, but at first, every person I know who eats a lot of meat for lunch, is ready for a nap.

[err_eur]

regardless, the key is INTENTION

when I was young I fasted until I nearly died. Maybe I should do it again, because simply existing I am bound to cause other beings to suffer in some way, when i went for a walk the other day I accidentally stepped on a grasshopper and killed it.

the INTENTION is important. The animals are killed accidentally, as a result of overpopulation, globalization and industrialization. I won't go into it. You understand why it happens. Conversely, one who consciously engages in meat-eating (children who don't know any better are exempt) is a part of the CONSCIOUS INTENTIONAL ACT OF MURDER every time they eat meat, whether or not they do it themselves. They intend to consume the flesh of another living entity. Their appetite and preference for the taste of flesh , and willingness to pay money for it, drives the industry.

[geofferd]

I have been a veggie for my whole 24 years of exsistence and applaud anyone who actually thinks about what they are eating. The food industry seems so full of poisons and hidden ingredients that it is essential for good health too consider what you are putting into your body. Its absolutely true that `you are what you eat` if every cell in your body is replaced every 7 years.

Now I dont think eating meat is un-natural, sick or evil and any veggie that claims this needs to try and respect meat eaters beliefs. But what is sick, evil and rotten to the core is the way meat is mass produced, it is a living hell for any poor animal being commercially farmed. Meat eaters need to consider the horrific life their food has once had, and only buy free range organic meat products. If your argument is that you cant afford to buy organic meat simple answer is dont buy it, and only have a meal with meat when you can afford it. This is what moderation means. Other animals may not be as intelligent as humans but still have emotions and thoughts and definately suffer with most modern farming techniques.

Over the years I have been attacked by many meat eaters and teased, but have made a point not to fight back becauase deep down i know my lifestyle is superior to someone who doesnt consider the feelings of other animals and other humans (this is not aimed at all meat eaters just those with no consideration). please just think about it.....

[Kodama]

Unfortunately, free range often goes like this:

There is a large warehouse where tens(or hundreds) of thousands of animals are kept in very tight quartes and not allowed out.

At some point, several months into the animals' lives, a small door is openend in one corner of the warehouse.

Outside of that door is a small "yard" where the animals have the option to visit for a few weeks.

That's it....

The only way to get real "Free Range" is to buy from a local farm or raise your own.

[err_eur]

if you hire and pay somebody to kill another person, you are guilty as well, maybe more so than the murderer, because without your money, the incentive, there would be no reason to commit the crime.


an analogy to your article would be like someone who is driving to work and accidentally hits a person who runs out into the highway. The driver may be tried for manslaughter, but they are not actually guilty of any intentional wrongdoing.

[djadonis206]

Meat slows down the digestive process, period...every person I know who eats a lot of meat for lunch, is ready for a nap.

That's what Thanksgivings all about

Yes, I love a good hearty meal after work (when I'm not in school)

You get off work, get a big steak or chicken dinner, lay on the couch and Veg out <-- no pun intended

that's the bomb

[err_eur]

Meat slows down the digestive process, period...every person I know who eats a lot of meat for lunch, is ready for a nap.

That's what Thanksgivings all about

Yes, I love a good hearty meal after work (when I'm not in school)

You get off work, get a big steak or chicken dinner, lay on the couch and Veg out <-- no pun intended

that's the bomb

man between this and the 9-11 posts yesterday, I have to say that you typify the arrogant, cynical, semi-sociopathic, apathetic, fanatically ignorant American male mindset that I have grown to hate.

[Welkin]

cruel treatment of carrots:




"And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest. And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil. One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear. And terror possesed me then. And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?" And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust." -TOOL

I don't have anything against Vegetarians or Vegans or those who eat meat. However I don't like prejudice, or when people do something for themselves and then think everyone else should do what they do. I have dealt with self righteousness from Hippies and Vegetarians and Carnivores and all other kinds. To each their own. I have my own reasons behind why I consume what I consume. Regardless, all Humans have to eat to survive and whether its plants or animals, I don't morally see the difference. Unless you believe that plants have no consciousness and cannot feel. If animals do, than why not plants?
We have to kill to eat and live..whether its plants or animals.
Too bad we can't make our food from sunlight like plants do. Yet we still assume we are superior life forms on the planet?


As far as longevity of health and life. I known many people that lived to be 80+ that weren't vegetarians and some of them even drank and smoke. I don't think there is any foolproof method of prolonging death. the moment of our death is inevitable and unknown.
But it seems like we are always trying to find the best ways to ward it off. to protect, shield our selves from it.we even try to protect ourselves from what lies beyond death. but it's coming for us regardless. Yesterdays poison is todays fountain of Youth and visa versa. If you feel better about yourself for the things you do and healthier than it's a good thing. But don't look down on others if they choose differently. Their path is not yours. I believe the important thing is to respect the food we eat and why. Remembering that without it we parish. remember your breath. breathing is essential as is water and food. I hold that which I eat in reverence because it keeps me alive. Whether its animals or plants it doesn't matter.

These are my opinions. It makes sense to me. and if any vegetarians, vegans, meat eaters even Klingons are guests at my house I am more than happy to prepare a dish of food to your acceptance and liking provided that I have the means to do so.
I respect your choice and your reasons for it.

[err_eur]

As far as longevity of health and life. I known many people that lived to be 80+ that weren't vegetarians and some of them even drank and smoke.

But don't look down on others if they choose differently. Their path is not yours. I believe the important thing is to respect the food we eat and why.

Whether its animals or plants it doesn't matter.

yes the difference is a very very vast one.

yes many people do live long healthy lives eating meat, but there are also MANY MANY AILMENTS leading to suffering and DEATH CAUSED BY OVERCONSUMPTION of MEAT.

It does matter when one's lifestyle involves the daily torture and murder of innocent living beings. To turn a blind eye is APATHY, and that is unacceptable to me

I am sorry there is a difference between a cow and a carrot. The level of consciousness in plant life is very basic and it doesn't have a nervous system as advanced as an animal through which it experiences tremendous amounts of pain when it's throat is slit. I'm sorry that argument won't work with me.


I stress the word OVERCONSUMPTION, because I don't think I would get so pissed off if people did eat meat moderately. In this country people not only OVEREAT meat, to the point where OBESITY SEEMS TO BE THE NORM NOWADAYS, but they also waste so much. People order humongous steaks only to take a bite or two and the rest gets thrown into the trash. ARROGANCE.

[frankie123]

Err_eur refuses to see any point but his own, regardless of what you may show him. Reminds me of the loose change morons. All he's got on me is his large font in caps

[Kodama]

RE: Tool quote. My GF met Maynard a few weeks back & hung out with him for a bit, he had no issues with her vegan ethos.

Unless you believe that plants have no consciousness and cannot feel. If animals do, than why not plants?
We have to kill to eat and live..whether its plants or animals.

Well there are several points to be made here.

1. Meat consumption also is a concern for human rights and environmental issues.

2. Thank you for considering the consciousness of those you eat

3. It is thought that much of the fear and trauma experienced by animals is due to their need to have a range and normal social order, etc.. then at the time of slaughter, the stress is due to their knowledge of death around them. I had a friend who worked at a ham store, he would often get returns of ham that was too "metalic" = adrenalinn in the blood = fear of the pigs impending death.

3. It is also thought that since plants cannot move, that is why any stress response is so much lower than animals, their systems are not equipped with fight or flight, so there is no panic or pain on the level of, for instance (as is often the case) a diseased cow who is improperly "stunned" having it's legs lopped off and skin torn off as it hangs upside down on the assembly line heading toward sausage.

4. People really don't use the plants feel pain because they feel for plants, it is just an easy way to possibly stump someone and feel ok with meat.

5. Ok ok ok, even if you were to obstain from eating plants due to respect for the plants, the animal must be fed hundreds of times before you are, hundreds more plants (and water and oil, more animals killed by farm machinery etc..) are killed to get your meat.

6. Once again, meat is wasteful, the earth cannot sustain more of the population eating the USA way!

As far as longevity of health and life. I known many people that lived to be 80+ that weren't vegetarians and some of them even drank and smoke. I don't think there is any foolproof method of prolonging death. the moment of our death is inevitable and unknown.

Yes some people are genetically destined to be old fogeys, but any heart doc will tell you that animal fat is the #1 killer, no ifs ands or butts.

There is also the case to be made for quality of life and a constant decline that experienced by so many, acommpanied by doctor visits and drugs...

[Kodama]

Err_eur refuses to see any point but his own, regardless of what you may show him. Reminds me of the loose change morons. All he's got on me is his large font in caps

I think you just met a bigger gas bag

[djadonis206]

Meat slows down the digestive process, period...every person I know who eats a lot of meat for lunch, is ready for a nap.

That's what Thanksgivings all about

Yes, I love a good hearty meal after work (when I'm not in school)

You get off work, get a big steak or chicken dinner, lay on the couch and Veg out <-- no pun intended

that's the bomb

man between this and the 9-11 posts yesterday, I have to say that you typify the arrogant, cynical, semi-sociopathic, apathetic, fanatically ignorant American male mindset that I have grown to hate. [size]

Don't hate the playa, hate the game...

Peace


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[frankie123]

Yes some people are genetically destined to be old fogeys, but any heart doc will tell you that animal fat is the #1 killer, no ifs ands or butts.

Which is exactly why the meat I eat doesn't have fat.

[Kodama]

Don't hate the playa, hate the game...

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Or - just don't play that game.....