live reinvents modernism??

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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forge
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Post by forge » Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:31 am

Now to throw a spanner in the works I think both point of view are absolutely right, although contradictory - but contradiction is one of the priviledges of artistic license in all art forms, and in a way one of the main motivating forces behind art.

Like Paws said, football could be described as art because of the years of preparation etc etc and in a definitely Zen way all life is art.

One of the most beautiful artistic creations is the Buddhist sand mandalas where the monks spend a week creating this amazingly intricate creation and then when it's finished they destroy it. The intention is to represent the impermenance of life and it's amazing intricate beauty which has no certain future but it's ultimate destruction in death. In this way Life is definitely art and it is really about the perceiver and whether they view life artistically.

To give an example my father was a painter and he used to stand behind the curtains just looking at the sky for ages telling me to look at how amazing it was, and while I was able to appreciate it I'm sure I never saw it in the same way he did, but then sometimes I listen to silence, or the outside world at night in maybe a similar way - the difference that we used different senses to perceive the universe in a heightened way or state.

But then in complete contrast, the thing that makes art what it is is the very fact that it is deliberate and useless. It has been deliberately created for it's own sake, or for the sake of it's meaning, but for no other purpose - so for example the thought and development behind an invention like a computer is pure genius, but you would maybe call it craftsmanship but not art, because there is something functional about it - it has a real world purpose or use.

So it's possible for all life to be art, but at the same time Art in itself is a completely man made response to life.

Put that in yer pipe and smoke it squiglefunk.

head
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Re: live reinvents modernism??

Post by head » Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:12 am

While some interesting things are being said about art here and elsewhere, I don't think this is about art.

..well, I don't think that
Anonymous wrote: Maybe it's time to lay these primitive musical instruments to rest.
was a tongue in cheek statement in any way...I think it's much smaller stuff being grafted onto one of the big subjects...

Suffice it to say that while I do agree that most bands are unable to make anything out of their guitars and other "primitive instruments", the same - and probably a larger percentage of electronic musicians - are too lacking in the talent department to make anything of their electronics. That's just a problem with educatin and culture...and not just musical education...intellect at large...I mean, hardly anyone seems to have anything informed to say about the world and life...let alone the ability to protest in a real and non random way.

There is no need for me to get rude about it, but to make such a statement and call musical instruments "primitive" in such a dismissive fashion, you have to be unable to play any of them to any interesting level.
Not much more needs to be said about you.

Talent or not, 99% of the musicians who have never learned to actually play simply have never been confronted with their human resources in the process of writing or performing music.
That's not to say that they don't put together some very interesting stuff from time to time...but when they do, it's largely a totally different process.

I absolutely love to write and even perform with large amounts of electronics , and certainly was one of the very first to have big shows in which my entire backup was electronically generated while playing live guitar or other "primitive" instrument over it. And they were seriously full on glamourous shows.
But before that I had performed Classical piano as a kid, and then became a "real" guitar player before going to Berklee to study Jazz both on guitar and other specific aspects of musical performance and composition. So I don't have the kind of complexes our guest here - as many other people - seems to have.

Hey, I'd say just the same to some of the classical musicians and other "primitives" I work with when they go on about how electronically generated music is invalid .
And I've done so before.

Go practise your scales "anonymous guest"...it'll make you a better eletronic musician. And BTW, It's good to be interested in the historical context of your activity...but your analysis of modernism is slightly summary...

Good health is really all that matters.
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forge
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Post by forge » Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:43 am

Anonymous wrote:I'll shove my primative bass so far up your *&%, you'll be hiccuping at 50 Hz.
so far I think this has been the best comment on this topic so far :lol:

but well put in your last post Head

I see what guest was getting at and I do think the primitive instruments comment may have been tongue in cheek, as were the Kerouac comments, but I agree with you that:
to make such a statement and call musical instruments "primitive" in such a dismissive fashion, you have to be unable to play any of them to any interesting level
And that alot of the comments, particularly about jazz being stale, were based more on Guests lack of 'wider world' experience. I personally heard some fantastic Jazz in a bar in Amsterdam that would make Kerouac go insane and really want to find something like it in London (recommendations welcome anyone)

It's a strange, dejected and to quote Martyn 'shitty' times we live in and it feels like the corporate world may have succeeded in watering down our cultures to such a point that McDonalds and Britney Spears are acceptable, and I guess the real shame is that while the kind of bands that were in the mainstream in the 60s-80s (and to a lesser extent 90s) seemed to be alot more progressive and meaningful than these days, so you have to look harder for good music - there's just so much out there now that you get lost in a big sea of it, which is fine, but the other thing we don't have much of these days is time.

But the main big most interesting point of this thread that seems to have been sidetracked was the impact the ability to make 'instant' electronic music will have on the music played - whether it will create new 'scenes' or movements - whether it will enable people to play with the same kind of fluidity as Jazz musicians can and so on. Especially now we have v4 which I think is going to have a big impact.

noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:01 pm

I've never been as excited about new music as I am now - to me, what's going on in British Hiphop/"grime" at the moment is just so fresh, lively and fantabulous that it beggers belief.

But as to instruments... I think that debate is over and the 'all sounds are valid' stance has won... right?

-Paws

forge
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Post by forge » Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:51 pm

noisetonepause wrote:I've never been as excited about new music as I am now - to me, what's going on in British Hiphop/"grime" at the moment is just so fresh, lively and fantabulous that it beggers belief.

But as to instruments... I think that debate is over and the 'all sounds are valid' stance has won... right?

-Paws
Paws - do you have any URLs of "grime" and British Hip hop? Kind of interested as I know nothing about it even though I live in the UK, but given I cut my proverbial teeth on 80s hip hop ya never know there might be something I like going around

BTW, i tried your site again and it's now just a journal - I clicked on the 'my website' link and it just redirects you to the journal in a kind of loop

I liked the post on there about 'phillip glass shagging kylie minogue....etc' quite funny.

chillybe

Post by chillybe » Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:19 pm

"grime" another fine example of british "borrowing" US's originality and calling it there own to establish dominance :)

noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:36 pm

Forge - yeah, but if you *read*(!) the journal you'll find lyrics and links to MP3s... it's just the easiest way to maintain a website for me.

As for grime, you got Dizzee Rascal, the new Streets album is inspired by it as well and there's Wiley's debut just out. Also worth checking out on the UK scene are Roots Manuva, TY and - I'm told - Jehst. Finding this stuff in Denmark is harder than hard, so I only know about the 'mainstream' acts, really.

As for grime borrowing US originality, please direct to which acts you're thinking about - cos that statement's a truckload of bollocks to me. Grime is British, through and through.

-Paws

chillybe

Post by chillybe » Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:13 pm

whatcha chuffin kid? ive been cuutin shit like this since 90's yo, this shit aint new....aint new in brookleen . you wannna listen to brooklyn yo, cause em bittin wannabe mc's aint shit. fuck the uk, its here where its at..God Bless America and NYC yo, have a nice day

forge
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Post by forge » Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:27 pm

chillybe wrote:whatcha chuffin kid? ive been cuutin shit like this since 90's yo, this shit aint new....aint new in brookleen . you wannna listen to brooklyn yo, cause em bittin wannabe mc's aint shit. fuck the uk, its here where its at..God Bless America and NYC yo, have a nice day
why the hell would any god in his right mind want to bless america?

Guest

Post by Guest » Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:37 pm

cause he is a force, and if he got a mind he forgives, and gives that force to those that rightly so deserve it. peace yo

forge
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Post by forge » Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:55 pm

Anonymous wrote:cause he is a force, and if he got a mind he forgives, and gives that force to those that rightly so deserve it. peace yo

that is the most astonishing cluster of horse shit.

The aliens have you conned by their mass hypnosis technique, God is a cunning ploy to get you to pay your taxes and vote republican.

head
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hey Forge, need some help?

Post by head » Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:03 pm

ow!...Forge, I know just how incensed one can get if one lets such crap comment climb up your mouse..:twisted: .!...just in case you needed someone to remind you that you were slipping into a whole new game of TurdTennis with this God bless America crap ...here it is! 8)
...Of course, if you fancy the idea of just such a game, by all means enjoy yourself...! :arrow: :!:

(BTW, Hope my remark doesn't come across the wrong way, it's just that I keep failing to catch myself just before slipping into such frustrating exchanges and sometimes would looove to be helped into a U-turn at the last minute)

:)
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saddam whosayin?
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Post by saddam whosayin? » Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:30 am

in this corner... eurocentic... weighing in at ? stone
in the far corner ... god bless america ...weighing in at ? lbs :lol:
at this point allow me to chuckle

you guys are more alike than different i fear
allow me to disagree with both of you

chillybe - are you really from brooklyn? your slang has a certain ali-g ish lilt to it.
it is entirely possible for non-brooklyn rappers to have skills
unfortunately the life conditions that birthed hip-hop are widespread
thats one reason why hip-hop went worldwide
all over this planet there are projects and all the projects probably have
someone who can spit (btw - you may be suprised to know that in the UK white people live in the projects so "shit is real" for them too)
alot of brit mc's use cockney and yard slang instead of biting our precious brooklyn lingo
anyway grime sounds much more dirty south than brookyn

noisetonepause- i'd like to direct you to the book "black atlantic" by paul gilroy (a brit btw) the major point of his book is that the black cultures of the new world are in constant dialog with each other
just because you dont like/ listen to current US hip-hop doesnt mean UK rappers and producers dont
especially MTV generation teenagers
my equation for grime
dirty south hip-hop + whatever term were using for the hardest ghetto music in england the week before they came up with the term grime
= grime

chillybe

Post by chillybe » Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:04 am

combination + limitation isnt innovation...somehow the brits think it is.

GOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICAGOD BLESS AMERICA

and i am from brooklyn!!! im gonna knock you out ,momma said knock you out!!!! punk!!!!

saddam whosayin?
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Post by saddam whosayin? » Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:11 am

i dont know god personally
but i'd imagine she doesnt like yo be yelled at

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