Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion.

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Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:53 am

Machinesworking wrote:
knotkranky wrote:I do believe strongly in prayer, meditation and the power of visualization. They are one in the same to me. It works.
Hey no offense, but bullshit.
Like I said, I am very very sure, that the croats and bosnians who were being interned in camps, and executed etc. were praying their little asses off. Why wouldn't god answer their prayers?
Mommy, why does god kill little kittens?

Age old question... my thoughts turn to Bob Marley's Redemption Song

"How long must they kill our prophets?
While we stand aside and look
Some say it's a part of it
We must fulfill the book"
It's god's will, his great plan, this is fundamental.

Loooong ago I dated a chick whose grandmother would pray for stroplights to change so we could make it somewhere on time, this went on for probably 20 miles, EVERY intersection. Needless to say I didn't volunteer to drive her around, strange person, that's just how she saw it. I thought she was being an asshole to prayer.

MW - IMO you have to accept that people believe in prayer. IMO it's the placebo effect, makes them feel better.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:07 am

Tone Deft wrote:MW - IMO you have to accept that people believe in prayer. IMO it's the placebo effect, makes them feel better.
Sure, but if someone is not intellectually retarded, then they have to accept that prayer, and grace are bullshit.
Again, why would the prayers of a seven year old boy in Africa dying of starvation not be answered yet supposedly some rich white person from the south prays for their 80 year old mom and she lives, through gods grace? I don't think I have to accept that, I think that is absolutely the worst bit of hypocrisy that religion has wrought.

People are walking around not so secretly trying to justify their own good luck by calling it grace, well personally I have no stomach for it. It absolutely denigrates the plight of the poor and war torn, so sorry, I find it repulsive and selfish.

Who cares if something makes somebody feel better if it compromises their ability to feel. It's the same sort of debate we could be having about heroin addicts you know?

knotkranky
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Post by knotkranky » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:32 am

Machinesworking wrote:
knotkranky wrote:I do believe strongly in prayer, meditation and the power of visualization. They are one in the same to me. It works.
Hey no offense, but bullshit.
Like I said, I am very very sure, that the croats and bosnians who were being interned in camps, and executed etc. were praying their little asses off. Why wouldn't god answer their prayers? Why would god answer only prayers from people who were capable of changing the actual thing themselves, like, "god help me beat this drug addiction!"
You can believe whatever you want, but like I said, any time I hear this sort of thing I think how racist and eurocentric this god must be? The fact is to me it reeks of a sort of blaming the victim mentality. "Well if only the ghetto kid had really visualized his success" etc.
No religious person I have ever met can answer this little riddle. If prayer and grace exist, why is it that it exists predominantly in european cultures? Why do white people in rich countries seem to be the main benefactors of grace? Why would grace be meted out to "cure" the symptoms of withdrawal from a hedonistic over indulging drug addict, yet grace will not appear for a starving child in Africa? No god I would want anything to do with would be that racist and powerless in his/her/it's ability to met out grace where it counts.

Here's the obvious answer, it's bullshit, and self serving egotistic bullshit at that. I know some of you are offended, but this is my least favorite part of this whole superstitious nonsense. It's sad to me to think people are still this incapable of seeing how absolutely silly this is.

hey Tone - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji4J54_rGwM



Let me clarify. It is the power of the mind and body and not the power of god I refer to. If one can only get there with god, then fine. I don't believe in god myself, but I do like positive ideas. To put ones mind in a state of gratitude is all that is required to be a prayer or meditation and it's not exclusive to organized religion. To see the positive outcome is to be heading towards it. What human beings are made of more than anything is thoughts and ideas, so It's important to spend a minute or two and think intensely on positive thoughts and goals. Ya don't ask you don't get. The center of my spirituality is my brain and not my surroundings or in some cloud. All of "this" is in my mind and my mind alone. When I die, everything will cease to exist. Spending a few minutes in ones mind wishing positive things for friends, family and self does wonders, but I also don't require anyone to believe it for it to work. It already does. Whatever makes one feel good is all.

shtreimel
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Post by shtreimel » Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:14 pm

Machinesworking wrote: Here's the obvious answer, it's bullshit, and self serving egotistic bullshit at that. I know some of you are offended, but this is my least favorite part of this whole superstitious nonsense. It's sad to me to think people are still this incapable of seeing how absolutely silly this is.
It is offensive, but not in the way that you intended. You're attacking things you clearly have little experience with. To experience prayer, and have anything meaningful to say about it, requires faith, subtlety, patience and humility. And from your posts, you appear to be lacking some of these traits. It's easy for any of us to attack something we have little experience with, very easy. But to engage in the process, with passion and commitment, perhaps your words would hold more weight. Until then, you're just taking up more space on the soap-box.

shtreimel
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Post by shtreimel » Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:16 pm

Tone Deft wrote:IMO it's the placebo effect, makes them feel better.
This isn't unique to religion...it's also true about all fields of medicine.

BoimB son of BoB
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Post by BoimB son of BoB » Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:32 pm

shtreimel wrote:
It is offensive, but not in the way that you intended. You're attacking things you clearly have little experience with. To experience prayer, and have anything meaningful to say about it, requires faith, subtlety, patience and humility. And from your posts, you appear to be lacking some of these traits. It's easy for any of us to attack something we have little experience with, very easy. But to engage in the process, with passion and commitment, perhaps your words would hold more weight. Until then, you're just taking up more space on the soap-box.
buuuullllllllllshiiiiiiiiiiit


when iwas a little little kid i once wished for 10 cm of snow. 2 days later to my utterly surprise 10 cm of snow was at my feet. just for a moment i tought my wishes were granted.

the next day, however, we had 1 meter of snow. "i didn't ask THAT!", i remember thinking.

:roll:

NorthernMonkey
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Post by NorthernMonkey » Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:41 pm

shtreimel wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:IMO it's the placebo effect, makes them feel better.
This isn't unique to religion...it's also true about all fields of medicine.
Welcome back :wink:
..?

ethios4
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Post by ethios4 » Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:04 pm

Good point on the eurocentric rich nature of Christianity, except that its not. I really do respect your opinions on this, and I think you ask a great question, but you dissing the entire history of religion as being bullshit is the most incredibly arrogant stance I can imagine taking. You really think you have everything figured out to the point that you can dismiss the experiences of 99% of the world's people as being 'retarded'? Whats the limit of your experience? Whats the extent of your steeltrap bias?

I'm not claiming to know everything, I'm posting questions and thoughts here, and reevaluating my beliefs based on the reasonable questions presented here....can you say the same? Or are you so deadlocked into your ultra-rationalist viewpoint that you can't believe anything you didn't read in Science or Nature? Is all of human experience calculable?

I still haven't heard an answer to the hard quetsions I've asked. How do you explain the existence of everything we see, given the logical requirement for the universe having been created by an eternal being outside of space-time? How do you explain the beginnings of life? How do you explain the ability of religions to come up with super-rational solutions to problems thqat are later explained by the rationalists who had no idea it was possible before? How much evidence does an atheist need?

shtreimel
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Post by shtreimel » Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:49 pm

ethios4 wrote:but you dissing the entire history of religion as being bullshit is the most incredibly arrogant stance I can imagine taking
Unfortunately, this is the cause du jour. We can thank ignorant, aggressive, and at times violent, religious folks for this backlash though
ethios4 wrote:I'm posting questions and thoughts here, and reevaluating my beliefs based on the reasonable questions presented here....can you say the same?
I don't think it's fair or reasonable to expect anyone to form conclusions - via debate - about these matters without engaging in the behaviors, customs and community of said religious practice. For example, I took a 9 week MSBR meditation class. It took 6-8 months for the practice to be integrated into my life, and it'll take much longer, and with sustained discipline, to draw any conclusions about my sitting practice. Of course, it would've much easier to blow the whole thing off like this:
"Eh, I'm too anxious to do any of this meditation hocus-pocus. It's all bullshit."

shtreimel
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Post by shtreimel » Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:50 pm

BoimB son of BoB wrote: buuuullllllllllshiiiiiiiiiiit
:roll:
Need I say more?

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:21 pm

ethios4 wrote:Good point on the eurocentric rich nature of Christianity, except that its not. I really do respect your opinions on this, and I think you ask a great question, but you dissing the entire history of religion as being bullshit is the most incredibly arrogant stance I can imagine taking. You really think you have everything figured out to the point that you can dismiss the experiences of 99% of the world's people as being 'retarded'? Whats the limit of your experience? Whats the extent of your steeltrap bias?
I am directly dismissing prayer and grace as having a real world effect beyond maybe helping a person to feel confident that they can do whatever act it is they are asking for grace in, like your drug addict that doesn't go through a detoxification process because of Jesus. That I categorically dismiss as superstitious nonsense, and if that offends you, too bad.
You can't really win an argument by saying, "except that it's not"
shtreimel wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: Here's the obvious answer, it's bullshit, and self serving egotistic bullshit at that. I know some of you are offended, but this is my least favorite part of this whole superstitious nonsense. It's sad to me to think people are still this incapable of seeing how absolutely silly this is.
It is offensive, but not in the way that you intended. You're attacking things you clearly have little experience with. To experience prayer, and have anything meaningful to say about it, requires faith, subtlety, patience and humility. And from your posts, you appear to be lacking some of these traits. It's easy for any of us to attack something we have little experience with, very easy. But to engage in the process, with passion and commitment, perhaps your words would hold more weight. Until then, you're just taking up more space on the soap-box.
And your post is bullshit, address the inequality of grace, and stop trying to tell me I have to believe in your religion to understand your religion. That's circular logic and you know it.
It's sad that you're trying to get points for character assassination, the simple fact that you of all people would try to call somebody out as lacking humility is pretty funny! :wink:

shtreimel
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Post by shtreimel » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:56 pm

Machinesworking wrote:And your post is bullshit,
You keep settin' 'em up, and I'll knock 'em down.
Machinesworking wrote:and stop trying to tell me I have to believe in your religion to understand your religion.
Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. You don't have to BELIEVE in my religion, you have to PRACTICE it to make any informed decision about who/why it works or not. So if you want your critiques to be taken seriously, at least with respect to Judaism, you may want to take a beginner's level class in Hebrew, perhaps some Aramaic. And a few years of Talmud, Midrash, Chumash, and sprinkling of Kabbalah wouldn't hurt. There's thrice services daily, and of course, the Breslover Chassidim recommend spending time in forest and speaking to God in your mother tongue. After a few years of the above, you may have some validity behind your "bullshit" claims.

Myself? I'm reading Dawkins, Harris and engaging with atheists on this board.
Machinesworking wrote:It's sad that you're trying to get points for character assassination, the simple fact that you of all people would try to call somebody out as lacking humility is pretty funny! :wink:
Pal, they're your words/comments.

ethios4
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Post by ethios4 » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:22 pm

Machinesworking wrote:I am directly dismissing prayer and grace as having a real world effect beyond maybe helping a person to feel confident that they can do whatever act it is they are asking for grace in, like your drug addict that doesn't go through a detoxification process because of Jesus. That I categorically dismiss as superstitious nonsense, and if that offends you, too bad.
Wow, were you there when those things happened? Who are you to dismiss something that you know nothing about, that you don't even believe is remotely possible, that you think you have everything figured out so well that you can tell people that their entire way of seeing the world is complete bullshit because it doesnt fit in with your worldview? You bring up the impoverished peoples of the world as your moral backup, but in the next breath you accuse the same people of being morons with bullshit superstitions?
Machinesworking wrote: You can't really win an argument by saying, "except that it's not"
I was challenging your assertion that only rich europeans believe in the power of prayer. Clearly this is not true since hundreds of millions of Christians live in countries not in europe or the us, and many of them are quite poor. How that came to be is a different story of course, but the fact remains.

andydes
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Post by andydes » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:37 pm

ethios4 wrote: I still haven't heard an answer to the hard quetsions I've asked. How do you explain the existence of everything we see, given the logical requirement for the universe having been created by an eternal being outside of space-time? How do you explain the beginnings of life? How do you explain the ability of religions to come up with super-rational solutions to problems thqat are later explained by the rationalists who had no idea it was possible before? How much evidence does an atheist need?
Perhap because you're asking too much. How do I explain the existance of everything we see? How do I explain the beginning of life?

If I could answer these questions, then this would be a real short discussion. The point is science is trying to get closer to the answers.

But how do you explain the existance of God? Of course, he's eternal. What a convinient get out clause.

Not sure where this logical requirement for an eternal being outside the universe comes from. It may be logical to you, but it's not a requirement as far as I can see.

Not sure what you mean by the super rational solutions either, I'm afraid.

Maybe you should be asking different questions.

I see the word arogant bandied around a lot. Is this a standard word to use one someone doesn't agree with an argument.

popslut
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Post by popslut » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:57 pm

knotkranky wrote: Let me clarify. It is the power of the mind and body and not the power of god I refer to. If one can only get there with god, then fine. I don't believe in god myself, but I do like positive ideas. To put ones mind in a state of gratitude is all that is required to be a prayer or meditation and it's not exclusive to organized religion. To see the positive outcome is to be heading towards it. What human beings are made of more than anything is thoughts and ideas, so It's important to spend a minute or two and think intensely on positive thoughts and goals. Ya don't ask you don't get. The center of my spirituality is my brain and not my surroundings or in some cloud. All of "this" is in my mind and my mind alone. When I die, everything will cease to exist. Spending a few minutes in ones mind wishing positive things for friends, family and self does wonders, but I also don't require anyone to believe it for it to work. It already does. Whatever makes one feel good is all.
What he said. As usual.

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